Marina Moved My Boat Without Permission from the Repair Yard and Damaged My Boat: Seeking Advice

[xyachtdave]

what did the owner of the green boat with the newly acquired scrape on his boat say about the matter?

It appeared to be of the welded to the pontoon, non moving from one year to the next variety so he’s probably not noticed yet.

 

[ylop]

I'd expect the marina to contact me if they needed to move my boat for operational reasons, but I'd expect it to be in the form "We're moving your boat on (date). Is there anything we need to know?" - i.e. telling me they're moving the boat, not asking my permission.

Knowing that there are two sides to every story I did wonder if the OP has misunderstood the marina and they were telling him, not asking him, about moving and that they expected him to sort the rudder out.

Of course, if they damaged the boat by moving her, they'd be responsible for repairs - but I would deal through my insurers in that case; they have better lawyers than I do.

it also has the advantage of keeping the emotions out of it. The "go our separate ways" comment sounds like how we deal with customers who shout and swear at us, as would protecting the CEO from customers who have lost their temper. Of course I don't know the OP, the marina or the cultures involved but it all sounds like there might be slightly more to it than the OP is telling us and perhaps he's lost his temper too?

 

[Bouba]

The CEO probably got on the phone to the yard manager and said, why are customers contacting me, that’s what I pay you for!

 

[Wansworth]

It really annoying when people are reasonable?

 

[KevinV]

It really annoying when people are reasonable?

Yep, the old "Listen, I don't want to get my lawyer involved, he's really expensive, how do we sort this out sensibly?" ?

 

[The Real Flipper]

Insurance. My daughter tried to recover a debt in The Netherlands and it was good money after bad. Ask a lawyer first before taking action, although we did and they said yes go ahead and give me your money.

Attorneys, yeah I very much don't want to go there. You know what they say- when two fight the attorneys win!

To put this into some sort of context, your actual damages/losses are:

The contents of the fridge
A rudder repair that does not meet your cosmetic standards
A scratch on the transom teak.

As Pandos wisely said, you need to decide whether you wish to leave that marina or accept that occasionally people make mistakes.

The rudder repair looking bad isn't a concern to me outside of the fact that I know for certain anybody coming to buy the boat someday will take one look at it, assume that some amateur (probably me) did a trash job and the rudder isn't safe, and immediately discount thousands from their mental value tally.
IE It will lower re-salability and value considerably.

Fix your boat up,move to another place if you want to,mark it up to life’s injustices but don’t let it sour your life,write a nice letter to the manager putting your point of view and leave it,get on with boating

Today I did as suggested and sent a certified letter to the CEO. It sounded like a good suggestion as I can at least get around the bully GM.
I threw in a few of the more aggressive quotes from the GM, and listed my grievances.
I also leaned on the quote from their own tech literally days before when he directly told me that they 'never' move boats with the rudder down as it can damage the rudder, the rudder bushings, and the rudder tube. So they literally broke their own policy after telling me what it was.
And the front desk lady who said they 'never' move boats out of repairs without speaking with the owner.
So they actually broke two of their own rules!

And frankly I'm sick of working on teak wood. I spent weeks working on that stupid teak just to get it to look decent and they immediately put a big gouge in it.
So happy days, do it all over again. Ugh...

The GM actually made everything worse.

But I did my best to indicate that I want to move forward amicably. And I really hope she will honor her promise to compensate with some marina time.

Forget the Terms and conditions. Just what is reasonable and unreasonable. They did speak to you in advance. that's a real bonus. they offered compensation and carried out a repair. that was proactive of them. So that sort of shows they were not really being difficult at the time. We can get very emotional about our boats.

That said yards can be buggers. Not sure if they have in this instance.

Steveeasy
Edit,
Still I agree with the OP. 2 days later was a bit quick. they should have told him. and any damage at all should be repaired. the General manager needs to remember its your boat and not his. you pay for a reasonable service and expect such. Hows that. nothing is black and white.
Steveeasy

They did speak to me in advance, but that only made it worse. Because why ask me when I'll be done, only to ignore my estimate and move the boat whenever.
Also their speaking did not indicate any rush whatsoever. So I really was blindsided.

Knowing that there are two sides to every story I did wonder if the OP has misunderstood the marina and they were telling him, not asking him, about moving and that they expected him to sort the rudder out.

it also has the advantage of keeping the emotions out of it. The "go our separate ways" comment sounds like how we deal with customers who shout and swear at us, as would protecting the CEO from customers who have lost their temper. Of course I don't know the OP, the marina or the cultures involved but it all sounds like there might be slightly more to it than the OP is telling us and perhaps he's lost his temper too?

I don't think there was any misunderstanding on my part. I'm pretty open and transparent.
But I did google the marina and found negative reviews from people citing the arrogance of the yard techs.
One of them from an angry person saying his boat was in a temporary visitor's space and he was only there for lunch, and came back and found his boat moved.
Which he found quite aggressive.
I think he's right. I think they yard techs egos are out ahead of them.

My best shot at 'the other side of the story':
Also I found out through 'discussions' with the GM that they normally charge by the day for the repair area and he tried to throw me out and take that fee out of my refund. I then pointed it out that I had it in writing from their office clerk that it was fine if I stayed there and since I was a berth holder it would be free of charge.

So maybe they were ticked off I was there too long because I do have some health issues and while I do my best, my work is laughably slow.
But then again, their own employee told me it's fine to be there. So it wasn't my fault.
He didn't have a counter to that.
And throwing my boat around was not exactly the civilized and reasonable way of speaking with me...

Anyway, he can check the emails and see it's true.
And hopefully dispel some of his vitriol.

And hopefully the CEO sees the same and finds my letter reasonable and keeps her promise.

In the mean time tomorrow is clear so I'll put my happy hat on and go do some (you guessed it!) teak repairs! Yay!
All I can do is focus on the day when after months of greatly underestimated work I'm actually on a boat- floating in the water, sailing

 

[sailaboutvic]

I be interested in knowing where this marina is to keep away .
Look I have to say we been in the Netherlands now for 6 months there about and we used quite a few marinas come sailing clubs and every one seen to bend over backward to accommodate , from given us bikes to running us around all free .
more then any marina we ever used any where in the UK ,
Hope the OP gets it all sorted

 

[PhillM]

Yes it's The Netherlands.



My boat is not in winter storage, where boats are prepared for a move.
My boat was in the repair area and was undergoing multiple repairs, including the rudder was down and placed on a wooden pallet.
And the marinas own people said they 'never' move a boat with the rudder down, days before the same people moved the boat, with the rudder down.
So I don't think its the same thing as shifting boats around winter storage.

I don’t think we have seperate “areas” in the U.K. well not that I’ve heard off. That may be relevant?

 

[RJJ]

In the UK (I can't speak for the Netherlands), it would be quite usual for the marina to move your boat to suit their operations; I haven't looked, but it's probably in the small print of the contract, and the reason I've never looked is because I regard it as normal. That said, they usually make sure that boats are situated so they don't need to move them. Again, many UK marinas don't have dedicated "repair" or "storage" areas, except for specific "dirty" tasks like removing antifoul or blasting.

I'd expect the marina to contact me if they needed to move my boat for operational reasons, but I'd expect it to be in the form "We're moving your boat on (date). Is there anything we need to know?" - i.e. telling me they're moving the boat, not asking my permission.

Of course, if they damaged the boat by moving her, they'd be responsible for repairs - but I would deal through my insurers in that case; they have better lawyers than I do.

Yes, and in my experience you are also able to let them know if moving is not appropriate.

 

[The Real Flipper]

I be interested in knowing where this marina is to keep away .
Look I have to say we been in the Netherlands now for 6 months there about and we used quite a few marinas come sailing clubs and every one seen to bend over backward to accommodate , from given us bikes to running us around all free .
more then any marina we ever used any where in the UK ,
Hope the OP gets it all sorted

Don't know if I should dox them. I don't need to make matters worse if they get wind that this is me. Especially since I'm still hoping for a positive resolution. I will say though that as a tourist you will be pampered compared to an immigrant. You are precisely what they like. You bring your money, you leave your money, and you leave.

 

[The Real Flipper]

Yes, and in my experience you are also able to let them know if moving is not appropriate.

Which I did by telling them it was currently undergoing rudder repairs. Unfortunately they really didn't seem to care...

 

[peter gibbs]

Which I did by telling them it was currently undergoing rudder repairs. Unfortunately they really didn't seem to care...

You are clearly dissatisfied with this yard's service. That can only be improved by a general chat with the CEO. Take in two bottles of decent beer. The gesture will be appreciated. If you are convinced this approach will bear little fruit, time to go straight to damage remediation then quit the yard.

Move to another yard thereafter because you will never be happy where you are. Holland has 700+ suitable workshops..

However, your experience surprises me. I have years of successful encounters with yards across Holland. They make special efforts for foreign clients, especially agreeable Brits. But yard management is not generally as in the UK. Taking space ashore for prolonged periods and doing your own work is not their habit. I guess on this occasion you received a less than courteous " hurry-up" offset by at least some attempt to put right the damage from moving your boat. BTW every yard has the absolute right to move boats, although notice is usual.

Recourse to law will achieve nothing.

Good luck.

 

[The Real Flipper]

You are clearly dissatisfied with this yard's service. That can only be improved by a general chat with the CEO. Take in two bottles of decent beer. The gesture will be appreciated. If you are convinced this approach will bear little fruit, time to go straight to damage remediation then quit the yard.

Move to another yard thereafter because you will never be happy where you are. Holland has 700+ suitable workshops..

However, your experience surprises me. I have years of successful encounters with yards across Holland. They make special efforts for foreign clients, especially agreeable Brits. But yard management is not generally as in the UK. Taking space ashore for prolonged periods and doing your own work is not their habit. I guess on this occasion you received a less than courteous " hurry-up" offset by at least some attempt to put right the damage from moving your boat. BTW every yard has the absolute right to move boats, although notice is usual.

Recourse to law will achieve nothing.

Good luck.

If this treatment surprises you then you are not an immigrant in The Netherlands!
If I move somewhere else, they will have my number before I arrive. If you know Dutch culture then you know this is also true.
And I would call taking agressive action that they themselves say they 'never' do because of risk of damaging your boat more than just 'less than courteous'.
The attempt to 'put right' included lying to me and publicly attacking my character. So not much 'attempt' there either really.
And nobody I've spoken to has ever heard of a marina that knew a rudder was wet with epoxy and moved the boat.
Again this does not fall in the 'normal' right to move category.

I agree with others that the best way to get legal rights is through independent surveyor and insurance company.
Dutch courts are as biased for locals as the Belastingdienst.
By your comments I'm guessing you're Dutch.

And the problem with unhappiness is not mine. It's the marina people who took aggressive action, not me.
So let's not pretend this is a problem with my unhappiness.
I'll be perfectly happy if the CEO owns up and keeps her word like a decent professional person.

If she does anything at all for me then the yard workers will have gotten a slap on the wrist and will treat me more 'normal' next time. And that's enough for me.

 

[KevinV]

If she does anything at all for me then the yard workers will have gotten a slap on the wrist and will treat me more 'normal' next time.

I wouldn't count on that, nobody likes to be reminded of a bad day, and you'll be that reminder. Get your boat sorted and find another yard.

 

[john_morris_uk]

One thing that confuses me in this story is the bit about wet epoxy. Most epoxy takes only a few hours to initially harden with full cure also measured in hours at any reasonable temperature.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Don't know if I should dox them. I don't need to make matters worse if they get wind that this is me. Especially since I'm still hoping for a positive resolution. I will say though that as a tourist you will be pampered compared to an immigrant. You are precisely what they like. You bring your money, you leave your money, and you leave,
That's not to say you are .

I get your point as a full time liveaboard I know how some liveaboard became a pain in some marinas, which is why we do our best to blend in .
The same apply to thos doing diy work on boats , at times leaving a mess and not clearing up and keeping the place tidy .
That's not to say you are.
I'm surprise they moved the boat when they could see repairs are in progress without you being there,
I'm also surprise if they knew that you are going to be there sometime doing repairs that you wasn't put well out of the way .
I would had throught the last thing any yard want to do is mess about re moving boats especially this time of year when they are busy hauling out.
If I was you I be looking at ways of smoothing thing out till your ready to move even if it means given up on any claims .
As some have already said my first call would had been to my insurance and I agree with them who said that they probably some thing in the T&C that says any damage is down to you .
To be honest over my long time cruising I seen damage done by yards and in marinas and in the end most had to be sorted by insurance.
The other year there was several boats that got damage in a marina in Sicily where mooring cleats that was clearly not man enough broke in a storm , some boat ended up on their bow lines swinging between pontoons in the end the owners had to sort out their own damage with their insurers .

 

[Bouba]

You are clearly dissatisfied with this yard's service. That can only be improved by a general chat with the CEO. Take in two bottles of decent beer. The gesture will be appreciated. If you are convinced this approach will bear little fruit, time to go straight to damage remediation then quit the yard.

Move to another yard thereafter because you will never be happy where you are. Holland has 700+ suitable workshops..

However, your experience surprises me. I have years of successful encounters with yards across Holland. They make special efforts for foreign clients, especially agreeable Brits. But yard management is not generally as in the UK. Taking space ashore for prolonged periods and doing your own work is not their habit. I guess on this occasion you received a less than courteous " hurry-up" offset by at least some attempt to put right the damage from moving your boat. BTW every yard has the absolute right to move boats, although notice is usual.

Recourse to law will achieve nothing.

Good luck.

My yard in France does allow for long term repairs on land..in fact some boats haven’t moved in all the years I have been there..and I am convinced that some people live on them full time..my problem is not the yard but the people fixing their boats on the hard..sometimes they steal your power outlet and don’t plug you back in..leaving me with not only a fridge of ruined food but also a thousand euros of damaged batteries ??

 

[The Real Flipper]

I wouldn't count on that, nobody likes to be reminded of a bad day, and you'll be that reminder. Get your boat sorted and find another yard.

I'm trying to say that you can't run away when mobbed by Dutch people.
They will stalk you to the next location, they will have conversations behind the scenes, and 100% of the time 100% of Dutch people will take the Dutch person's side. Yeah. It's like that.

So you have no choice but to say loudly what you believe to be true. If you don't fight back, they won't respect you, and they will literally never leave you alone. There is no moving to another marina and 'starting over'. Might as well sell the boat at that point...

I don't make the rules and I'm not trying to change their culture. I'm just trying my best to get along and be treated 'normaal'.

One thing that confuses me in this story is the bit about wet epoxy. Most epoxy takes only a few hours to initially harden with full cure also measured in hours at any reasonable temperature.

Just to clarify I think I mentioned earlier in the thread it was not cured, not actually wet to touch.

In the temperatures we've had the past few weeks epoxy cures very slowly and can take a week or more. Even in normal times epoxy can take a week to fully cure.
For example the epoxy I'm using will be thickened enough to work with after mixing normally in 15 minutes to half hour.
The last batch I did was fully workable after I'd put the plugs in a whole side of the boat 2 1/2 hour later! I was really surprised. No small batches needed here!
It's true. Temperature and humidity make a huge difference with epoxy curing times.

On top of which I had just put another layer on top of the rudder late afternoon before they moved the boat.
It was not even close to done.

And I wouldn't have done that batch if they'd merely spoken with me. The last round was pretty well cured already and we probably could have just put the rudder up (as they said 'must' be done to move the boat, but they didn't do) and moved the boat, lowered the rudder and I could have finished work. No problem.

If their time constraint was so dire, I certainly would have been flexible in working with them.
All they had to do was talk to me like a normal person and I would have been easy.

I get your point as a full time liveaboard I know how some liveaboard became a pain in some marinas, which is why we do our best to blend in .
The same apply to thos doing diy work on boats , at times leaving a mess and not clearing up and keeping the place tidy .
That's not to say you are.
I'm surprise they moved the boat when they could see repairs are in progress without you being there,
I'm also surprise if they knew that you are going to be there sometime doing repairs that you wasn't put well out of the way .
I would had throught the last thing any yard want to do is mess about re moving boats especially this time of year when they are busy hauling out.
If I was you I be looking at ways of smoothing thing out till your ready to move even if it means given up on any claims .
As some have already said my first call would had been to my insurance and I agree with them who said that they probably some thing in the T&C that says any damage is down to you .
To be honest over my long time cruising I seen damage done by yards and in marinas and in the end most had to be sorted by insurance.
The other year there was several boats that got damage in a marina in Sicily where mooring cleats that was clearly not man enough broke in a storm , some boat ended up on their bow lines swinging between pontoons in the end the owners had to sort out their own damage with their insurers .

They couldn't just only see the repairs were obviously being done. I'd also stopped two of the yard workers literally only out of politeness just to show them the work I was doing and tell them my progress, and explain how the weather was affecting the epoxy, just days before they moved my boat. I couldn't possibly have communicated better or more respectfully. That's what's so frustrating. I know I did my best with them, and still got shot down.

I hear you about the insurers. And I should have called. When the CEO made me promises of compensation, I basically went with their GM's 'survey' and accepted their repair guy. I was actually trying to save them money (which I certainly did!) and be easy about the whole matter.

Then once their guy started rudder repairs, they reversed their position, and GM got aggressive, and refuses compensation.
I mentioned this in the letter to the CEO. I was doing my best to be easy, resolve and move forward. I don't need these kinds of dramas.
And I don't like to hold grudges. I'm too far down the road of life for such things.

And literally a single apology from *anybody* wold have gone miles to making me feel better about the whole thing!

I'll lay my faith in the letter. I sent it certified as advised. And I think my tone was quite balanced and indicated a wish to move forward amicably. Let's hope the CEO fulfills her promise in good faith. I'm giving her the opportunity to do so!
And I will actually drop all this, forget about it and move on if she does. May be hard to believe. But apparently my character is the opposite of what I have been judged!

My yard in France does allow for long term repairs on land..in fact some boats haven’t moved in all the years I have been there..and I am convinced that some people live on them full time..my problem is not the yard but the people fixing their boats on the hard..sometimes they steal your power outlet and don’t plug you back in..leaving me with not only a fridge of ruined food but also a thousand euros of damaged batteries ??

I've seen such things too. While there in the repair area, I saw people 'borrowing' other people's power, which they do charge for.
Of course I'm not going to rat anybody out, they seemed to be just doing a quick job or two.
But I have checked my electric meter from time to time ;-)
Sorry about your batteries. That is a raw deal.

Yeah so I know worse things can happen in marinas. This isn't the end of the world.
How this thing turns out for everybody is totally up to the CEO at this point.

 

[KevinV]

I'm trying to say that you can't run away when mobbed by Dutch people.
They will stalk you to the next location, they will have conversations behind the scenes, and 100% of the time 100% of Dutch people will take the Dutch person's side. Yeah. It's like that.

I know. I'm of Dutch heritage. I live in Wales by choice.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I know. I'm of Dutch heritage. I live in Wales by choice.

Actually my partner is Dutch but that made no different how we been treated while I'm the Netherlands by marinas or local , I have to say marinas I found much more friendly here in the Netherlands then I found back home in the UK plus local boat owners have gone out of they ways to make us feel welcome .
Ok I have to say while we been stuck in this marina I done a few jobs free of charge for some owners but only because they where friendly before hand to the extend of offering us cars to use and run us around at times .