Long keel manoeuvres

[Tranona]

Urm... I'd need a rudder like a barn door.... And lets face it... Balanced rudders are rather 'unusual' on a long keeler, as well as potentially defeating the advantages of robustness and reduced risk of entaglement on pots and stray rope...

They are unusual because designers did not consider weight of helm or manoeuverability under power. Main objective was to minimise prop aperture to try and increase effectiveness of what is usually a poorly sized and shaped rudder. If there is enough separation of rudder from keel, such as on a Golden Hind or a Vancouver (for example) you can have a robust, effective balanced rudder. The narrow chord, eliptical shaped rudders that look very elegant are woefully inefficient. Compare the Tradewind 33 rudder with the later 35 and talk to the owners about which is more effective.

 

[mikemonty]

...so are there any more suggestions to make manoeuvres a little more stress free and beat the effects of the wind?

Not being a regular denizen of marinas - it came as a bit of a learning curve when I took our mere 26 foot long keeled contessa into a local marina to extend our season for a few weeks. (making the most of bad season).

I've not yet finished the learning curve (never will) but so far I've come up with this:
Coming into the berth forwards,
The bows blow off easily but it only takes a moderate amount of way to keep on track. reverse is not very effective and I've already ended up using a line from midships to the first cleat we come to to arrest the boat if I overcook it.

In theory...
If I found that the wind was too strong to allow me to swing the bows in without running three feet up the pontoon or ripping a cleat off I think my strategy would be to come down the fairway in reverse - once I've got way on, it steers OK.
I'd pass my berth in reverse and then come back to it upwind.
I suspect the tricky part would be making sure that I stopped the bows from swinging at the transition from reverse to forward.

The other tricky part is deciding at what point the wind will be too strong to allow the bows to swing, because if you intend to go in downwind you gotta be commited about it!

As an aside
There is no way I can reverse straight back out of a berth. Just getting enough way on to get steerage backwards sends the back end crabbing to port and the bow swinging to starboard. If I counter the propwalk by putting the tiller over to port the whole boat ends up going out diagonally to starboard. (even if I put the engine in neutral, its momentum carries it) The whole exercise leaves me with a dry mouth. Thankfully the boat is small enough to be able to push away from other boats when it gets too close.

 

[chrisedwards]

I would be very interested to know, in more detail, what techniques you use.

Nothing profound - mostly common sense - for those difficult downwind approaches. Just 5kg or 7.5 kg bruce on anchorplat - no chain - lowered over bow will spin longkeeler short round. Often approach berth under sail and merley drop over stern on final approach. (ready for departure).

If aproaching uner sail to windward and, being cautious, lose all way just short of pontoon/buoy then couple of seconds to drop anchor while sorting out method to get line ashore/to buoy - ( I have throwing grapnel and dinghy on davits)

Secret is to have anchoring systems (drainpipes for and aft, no chain,flaked anchorplat in bags ( end turned around cleat with fender attached if necessary) so easy that it becomes normal to consider anchors when manoeuvering.

We play the sailing game for different reasons - boat handling under sail gives me the greatest thrill.

 

[Poignard]

We play the sailing game for different reasons - boat handling under sail gives me the greatest thrill.

I can understand that, and you have the best rig for it of course.

Can you explain what the drainpipes are for, please?

 

[charles_reed]

I would be very interested to know, in more detail, what techniques you use.

Club-hauling - very well-established method of getting turned into tricky corners under sail alone. Masters described it partially correctly, O'Brian got it more correct and I've seen it used in la Rochelle on a Morbihan gaffer

In reading all of these posts, I get the impression that people don't really get a chance to know their boats thoroughly. It's OK for me with the same boat for 22 years and about 60K under the keel.

Above all, learn to park under sail, engines always fail at the wrong time, in my experience.
96% of boats are controllable going astern, once above about 4 knots; prop-walk on fixed prop long keelers is a very useful adjunct
By all means fit a thruster, but not as your sole aid for coming alongside!!

 

[Poignard]

96% of boats are controllable going astern, once above about 4 knots; prop-walk on fixed prop long keelers is a very useful adjunct

Usually, the only time I really need to manouvre astern is leaving a marina berth. I have less than 2 boat lengths astern of my home berth. Reaching a speed of 4 knots in that distance is probably a little beyond the capabilities of my 10hp BUKH engine!

 

[chrisedwards]

I can understand that, and you have the best rig for it of course.

Can you explain what the drainpipes are for, please?

Very kind of you to say so - thanks. Drainpipes are jubileed to push/pulpits and anchor just slots in (upside down of course)

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

In reading all of these posts, I get the impression that people don't really get a chance to know their boats thoroughly. It's OK for me with the same boat for 22 years and about 60K under the keel.

I suspect there's a lot of truth in that... but my excuse is that i've only owned the boat for 8 weeks, having come from a deep fin, which was so easy to handle under power it was ridiculous!

 

[chrisedwards]

I suspect there's a lot of truth in that... but my excuse is that i've only owned the boat for 8 weeks, having come from a deep fin, which was so easy to handle under power it was ridiculous!

Don't despair - Long keelers are more forgiving to handle under sail.For really sloooow speed manoeuvering you haven't got keel stall, drifting sideways, head falling off.........

 

[Gordonmc]

Hi Gordon..... a sturdy little ship! What is she out of interest?


assume its the john samson ketch as in your 'personal' ?

Yes. John Samson C-Quence. Built Galveston, Texas. One of two Samsons I know of in the Clyde, the other being Merlin of Clyde built at Hillington, Glasgow as a Rolls Royce sail training ship.
Under sail:

 

[KellysEye]

What we do:

- Backing out of a berth. Put a spring on to stop the boat moving back. Run the engine in reverse at 1,200 revs for about two minutes, this gets water flowing over the rudder and negates the prop walk. We use 1,200 to get the water flowing but reduce that when taking the spring off. If you do increase the power then do it very slowly.

- Backing into a berth we use very short blips of low power, this also negates prop walk. However if tide/wind is strong we go in bows to.

 

[Magaz97]

I'm sure you have a good point there. Here's a picture of the profile of my boat, which cannot be steered astern. I'm sure increasing the rudder size would help but I wonder if doing so would adversely affect some other handling characteristic

Beautiful looking boat!

 

[Poignard]

Beautiful looking boat!

Thank you. Kim Holman, her designer, certainly produced some fine looking designs.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Single handed + 2 bladed prop+small aperture+9hp = lots of warps for me. It's about the only predictable way out of a berth.

With a RH prop and the tiller over to port, alternate forward/reverse will spin long keeler's pretty well. Most long keelers have cutaway forefoot's which make the bows act like modern boats in a wind.

If I don't like the look of things in a strange marina I always raft up to the nearest boat that's bigger than me to suss things out. Sometimes it means planting a warp that I can pick up easily from a neighbouring boat.

Great topic. It's great to hear everyone's views and the tips suggested.

 

[VO5]

Whilst sounding elementary, the number of people I see struggling to get a line around a pontoon cleat from onboard a boat makes the following seem worth mentioning as an addition to my previous post.

The very best way to lasso a pontoon cleat, quayside bollard, or whatever is as follows. Take a modest length warp, make one end of it off to the boat's cleat. Coil the remainder in medium sized turns. Take as many turns of this coil as you think you'll need to throw a nice big bight of warp onto the pontoon in one hand, five or seven for example. Lay the excess on deck. Stand on the warp between your coil and the excess. Pass the coil under any guard wires. Split the coil into two similar portions, one in each hand, then drop the middle turn from the larger coil to give some scope between the two coils and allow your hands to move independantly. When your cleat is in range, simply throw your two coils well beyond and one well to each side of your target in a gentle underarm motion - rather like you are ushering chickens. It's very hard not to have your target within the bight of warp now cast out ashore at this point, so simply pick up the warp from under your foot, bring in the slack and take a turn on the cleat where the other end was previously made off. Done, you're secure in a manner that brings the boat under full control if done amidships and motored onto. You really cant miss, no one has to make a wild leap from the boat and it's very simple to deal with the slack as there's only one end to worry about.

Spot on.
Additionally you can use your engine and rudder to stretch this spring you have put ashore to get her closer to the pontoon, making it easier to jump ashore and tie up bow and stern ropes.
Then if you wish you can add an additional spring and breast ropes if you like.