Long keel manoeuvres

[maby]

...
Getting into a tight position is something I usually relish but I must admit that I can now 'cheat', with a bow thruster which makes a huge amount of difference.

Was eyeing up that very sexy Jeanneau 360 joystick system at the Boat Show - our next boat is definitely going to have one of them!

 

[ump010]

I also have a long keel boat and had the same problems getting into Marina berths, especially in France!

Solution - I fitted a bow thruster - Now no problems at all! I can get into tight berths with a cross wind, I can steer when going astern and I can get out of a raft with ease!

All the traditionalists will wade in now, saying a good seamen doesn't need one etc. You could manage without an engine and sail in, but this is the 21st Century!

Fit a Bow Thruster, end of problems and the quiet life prevails.

 

[Gordonmc]

Fit a Bow Thruster, end of problems and the quiet life prevails.

For those who cannot fit a bow-thruster I guess its a case of practice and more practice.
All three of the boats I have owned have been long-keelers. The Hurley 22 was the worst of the lot as the prob was aft of the rudder. It just would not go backwards, end of. I would try to manoevre in the marina and it would just sat in the middle of the fairway with the outboard going full chat in reverse. No movement.
The second was a canoe-stern 30 footer with long ballast keel and bilge plates. It would go backwards, but chose its own direction. It was, at least, predictable in use of astern when approaching a pontoon as the prop-walk provided a handy starboard kick to the stern. Not much value when the berth is port-to.
The latest is another proposition. My guess is that applying astern drive causes the boat to pivot on its centre of effort. Instead of the prop walk kicking the stern, it forces the bow to go the opposite direction.

If anyone cares to comment on the theory after looking at the keel profile I would be interested.

 

[daniel..]

I am no expert by any stretch of imagination, but here is how I solved it with my long (but not full) keel 47ft sailboat:

My berth is med-style stern to. When going aft, whatever you do to the rudder, at half throttle the boat will turn to port about 45 degrees before following the rudder direction. At lower speeds, it will just do whatever it wants.

After some very embarrassing (and at times downright dangerous) attempts, an old salt approached me and said "if you want to put this boat in this berth, you need to enter backwards along the full pontoon at full speed". Scary, but very true. What I do now is to pass the entrance to the pontoon slightly, go backwards at full speed (the initial port-to turn helps me enter the pontoon aisle), pass around 15 boats -still backwards- and, one boat width before my berth, make a sharp turn to port and lower the speed a bit. The boat then enters cleanly into my berth, still at quite a speed! I then center the rudder and need to stop the boat with a good burst of forward throttle before it hits the pontoon.

It is very scary, nerve-wreckling and quite spectacular, but so far it works every time. Because the boat is going fast, it is less affected by the wind speed and direction.

I hope I was clear.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Hi Gordon..... a sturdy little ship! What is she out of interest?


assume its the john samson ketch as in your 'personal' ?

 

[KINGFISHER 8]

Always a challenge going astern!

 

[Tranona]

Tranona,

The skipper who relys on getting his boat into his own berth, with which he's familiar, by having it set up like a soft play area is going to struggle getting into an unknown berth, with no fendering, in a tricky corner, when it's blowing a gale from the wrong direction and it's dark and raining simply because he doesn't practice properly at every opportunity.

The skipper who uses universally applicable techniques as a matter of routine at his home berth will struggle less because he's well practised.

That is really patronising! How do you know that the person who makes life easy for himself in his own berth is not capable of coping with other situations? By definition, different types of berth (and boats) may require different techniques. The good skipper is the one who recognises this and applies the appropriate technique for the situation.

The OP was asking how to make life easier in his home berth where he clearly has difficulties owing to its orientation and his type of boat. The obvious first thing to do (as I suggested) is to find a more friendly berth and then to develop a method that suits him in that situation. That is the "Proper" way - even it is different from the approach in other situations.

 

[chrisedwards]

Don't discount use of anchor. I have two small Bruces (nothing to catch fingers in) in drainpipes fore and aft with just anchorplat flaked in bags attached to push/pulpits. My boat is a 30' longkeeler and I use anchors frequently sailing alongside (and sailing off)

 

[Simondjuk]

That is really patronising! How do you know that the person who makes life easy for himself in his own berth is not capable of coping with other situations?

I don't know, but do I wonder why if he is completely capable, he requires such aids in his home berth.

By definition, different types of berth (and boats) may require different techniques. The good skipper is the one who recognises this and applies the appropriate technique for the situation.

Agreed, but having a fender deployed on the pontoon isn't a technique you can apply at any berth you visit, so why learn to depend on it as a method?

The OP was asking how to make life easier in his home berth where he clearly has difficulties owing to its orientation and his type of boat. The obvious first thing to do (as I suggested) is to find a more friendly berth and then to develop a method that suits him in that situation. That is the "Proper" way - even it is different from the approach in other situations.

He was indeed, and I offered the him some suggestions applicable to his type of boat in my first post on the thread. Whether he decides to give those a go and learn how to handle his boat more efficiently, into either windward or leeward berths since the wind will change, as a result, or opts to see if he can change berths and deploy a load of dock fendering to save him the bother of honing his skills is up to him.

Sorry if you find my responses patronising. They are not intended to be. My opinion remains, however, that running the bow into the pontoon to make it stay put whilst lines are deployed is certainly not proper.

 

[Leighb]

We employ the technique mentioned by Simondjuk earlier in this thread for our home berth.

Fortunately we are blessed with sensible pontoons with proper cleats - how I hate loops. - We have a line of marked length which is made fast to the midships cleat. The line terminates in a loop threaded through plastic tube which keeps the loop open. As we come in to the berth the crew steps ashore with this line which is dropped over the end cleat, he/she then walks forward with the bow line. The midships line makes sure the boat stays alongside and does not reach the end of the berth.

However in the very varied berths in other marinas we have to practice all the normal berthing manoeuvres.

I see no reason though not to make life that bit easier when returning to your home berth.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Always a challenge going astern!

another beauty..... not sure why but long keelers always attract my attention more than those flighty yachts with a 'stuck' on keel.

I've sailed a few..... Beneteau, Jeaneau, Gib Sea, J109, Bavaria, and really like how some perform (especially as caravans.... apologies to the J109)).... but they don't visually have the same attraction.

 

[Seagreen]

Well, FWIW, I sometimes have similar problems (10+ tons, long keel) but maybe not so much windage.
First some points. I assume you're doing this singlehanded? Ask yourself just how quickly you can get from the helm to the bow (or elswhere) to cast a line around the finger's cleats. If the answer is "not fast enough", then you need to shift your berth permanently, which seems a shame. If you just have the odd awkward day, then a lot of fenders on your leeward side to absorb the bump with your (NB) neighbour's boat. If NB absent you can go on the leeward berth and warp over, unless the wind is very strong.

Alternatively, you might like to flake the mooring warps ready on the cleats on the finger and have the ends dangling over the edge of the finger to be easily caught with a boathook as you pass. (or make a pre-set big plastic ring on a stand attached to the warp, or a loop hanging off a bamboo cane, etc.) A couple of big fat fenders on the inboard end of the berth may well help, as you can either let the lee side of the bow rest on them whilst going gently ahead till the stern lines are sorted, or even use them like a bike stand for the bow and wedge the bow between them. All this is assuming you need to get the stern moored first, and thats usually by the helm. One astern, a cleat amidships and that'll hold you long enough to get 2 lines ashore. After that its just tweaking.

 

[Tranona]

We employ the technique mentioned by Simondjuk earlier in this thread for our home berth.

Fortunately we are blessed with sensible pontoons with proper cleats - how I hate loops. - We have a line of marked length which is made fast to the midships cleat. The line terminates in a loop threaded through plastic tube which keeps the loop open. As we come in to the berth the crew steps ashore with this line which is dropped over the end cleat, he/she then walks forward with the bow line. The midships line makes sure the boat stays alongside and does not reach the end of the berth.

However in the very varied berths in other marinas we have to practice all the normal berthing manoeuvres.

I see no reason though not to make life that bit easier when returning to your home berth.

Exactly - and if you have aboat with high topsides, jumping down is not a good idea - particularly if on your own!

We have loops on most of our pontoons so it is far simpler to have lines already attached - the right length with soft eyes so no need to lassoo cleats, and also permanently fixed heavy duty buffers at strategic points. Mooring is then drama free and accomplished from deck - even if it is lousy practice for berthing elsewhere.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Mine (from the little reversing ive done in her so far) seems to reverse just fine in a straight line, turns to starboard a treat in reverse, but wont go to port at all.

Adventures to come i suspect!

 

[Colvic Watson]

The Kipper will swing her keel to starboard with a strong touch of forward - takes guts coming into a berth!

On the other hand she won't turn her bow to starboard unless there is a good flow over the rudder - I've tried everything including putting a plate of fresh bacon sarnies on the pontoon to her starboard and she still hangs back.

 

[gus]

The size and shape of your rudder needs to be proportional to the length of your keel. If you have a long keel you need a big rudder. Hydrodynamically shaped to exert the maximum effect and with a balanced front edge to lessen the effort on the wheel. Only then will you have complete control even whilst going astern and be able to steer where you wish. Add a large prop, plenty of power and you should be able to spin the boat within its length. It is all about properly being in control.

 

[Poignard]

Don't discount use of anchor. I have two small Bruces (nothing to catch fingers in) in drainpipes fore and aft with just anchorplat flaked in bags attached to push/pulpits. My boat is a 30' longkeeler and I use anchors frequently sailing alongside (and sailing off)

I would be very interested to know, in more detail, what techniques you use.

 

[westernman]

The size and shape of your rudder needs to be proportional to the length of your keel. If you have a long keel you need a big rudder. Hydrodynamically shaped to exert the maximum effect and with a balanced front edge to lessen the effort on the wheel. Only then will you have complete control even whilst going astern and be able to steer where you wish. Add a large prop, plenty of power and you should be able to spin the boat within its length. It is all about properly being in control.

Now back in the real world......

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Urm... I'd need a rudder like a barn door.... And lets face it... Balanced rudders are rather 'unusual' on a long keeler, as well as potentially defeating the advantages of robustness and reduced risk of entaglement on pots and stray rope...

 

[Poignard]

The size and shape of your rudder needs to be proportional to the length of your keel. If you have a long keel you need a big rudder.

I'm sure you have a good point there. Here's a picture of the profile of my boat, which cannot be steered astern. I'm sure increasing the rudder size would help but I wonder if doing so would adversely affect some other handling characteristic