Log Books

[Resolution]

Given that much of today's navigation data is initially recorded electronically and continuously (GPS, wind, speed thru the water etc) has anyone worked out a practical way to record this information in a "log book"? The historic pencil and paper version seems laborious and inadequate by comparison.
At least until the power goes down.
Any ideas?

 

[awol]

What you need is a laptop and software like NMEA data logger to capture all the nmea words buzzing around your bus.

Or you could update your paper charts (just in case) and write in a traditional log book.

 

[damo]

What is laborious about putting a mark on a chart with eg time, course, speed alongside? I sometimes do it hourly for heaven's sake /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[narooma]

On a trip, as against a sail around the bay, we log all instrument readings every hour and plot posn. on chart. At least we would know where we were (or had been recently) should it go udders up.

Also gives the watch keeper a chance to let go the fishing line and pass near enough the galley to put the kettle on.

 

[CelebrityScandel]

Our electronic charting system automatically maintains 2 logs.

The first records position, course and speed at 1 minute intervals. It also records every NMEA sentence received and time stamps them (so that covers position, heading, wind, log, depth, etc), the chart in use at the time, all manually worked fixes on the chart in use, alarms, etc. It also allows you to manually enter time stamped notes of other information you wish to record such as barometer, sea state, events, etc, whatever you want. It automatically maintains this log in approx 1.4MB txt files so that they can be archived; it automatically starts a new log every day.

The second log just maintains position at 1 hour intervals plus any notes added by the crew. It starts a new one every 3 months but again broken into files for archiving.

Our ECS is nothing special, I really assumed that most electronic charting systems did the same but have never done a review of others to check.

Suppose there will now be a barrage from those who prefer to argue over what hardness pencil should be used. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[damo]

"argue over what hardness pencil should be used."

2B or not 2B?

 

[JKay]

Oh your such a BA"£%RD /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Cheers Joe

 

[Cornishman]

I am sure that is terrific, but as a written log is a requirement for every vessel and can be produced as evidence in a court of law I wonder why your electronic version is necessary?

 

[damo]

Could you be more specific about the requirement?

Who requires it, is its form specified, EVERY vessel?

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

How about a Navtex with fax paper print out... I believe that at least one brand can be set to print out the Lat/Long from the GPS at preset periods...

Hardly covers the need IMHO though.... significantly ineffective without course and speed info at the same time...

Not a major hassle to stick a line in a book every now and then.... in fact I quite enjoy doing it! and forces you to look at things like Baro every now and then and hopefully keep on top of what is going on....

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Cornishman,

I might be wrong, but I thought that SOLAS only required a log for international navigation, not coastal.... a point of law only IMHO, as to not keep one is darned irresponsible...

I also seem to remember that the log can be electronic, but must be non deleteable, so a record stored on a PC hard drive wouldn't meet SOLAS requirements...

All subject to correction by those more informed than I!

 

[jhr]

[ QUOTE ]
Not a major hassle to stick a line in a book every now and then.... in fact I quite enjoy doing it!

[/ QUOTE ] I'm saying nothing...... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[CelebrityScandel]

[ QUOTE ]
I am sure that is terrific, but as a written log is a requirement for every vessel and can be produced as evidence in a court of law I wonder why your electronic version is necessary?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry while a written log may or may not be a requirement for you it is not a requirement for us. Is news to me that electronic documents are not allowed in court; I suspect the court systems of many countries will have ground to a halt long ago if that was so. Of course that may have happened in the UK /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif but we are flagged elsewhere.

If you are thinking of heading down the track of the risk of maliciously editing an electronic log such as ours then I suggest that you consider how hard that would be given the type and frequency of data (many records a second) in it and of which much could be independantly verified. Probably easier to maliciously edit a bound paper log.

In the case of an incident the electronic log maintains a second by second record of the boat's position, heading, etc, etc so somewhat similar to a black box or VDR in that. Far more valuable than a written record I would have thought and a valuable aid to any investigation, but I suspect you don't.

 

[Cornishman]

Let me give you an incident I recall from some years ago where a severely injured crewman sued a skipper because he saw his injuries as being the result of the skipper’s incompetence. I was called as an “expert witness” and attended the Admiralty Court for four days. At one point the judge called for the yacht’s log book, an official document, which was not available because it had not been kept. This led to a severe criticism of the skipper with a warning that he could be prosecuted. He wasn’t, but the warning was quite clear.
This evidence could not have been recorded electronically, and the case was made more difficult because it relied upon the memories of witnesses of an incident which had occurred nearly a year before.
My point is that log books record much more than just navigational information and I am sure that the machine referred to here is, like GPS, electronic chart plotters etc is an excellent “aid to navigation,” but that is all.
Although I retired from tutoring RYA courses two years ago I don’t think things have changed, and the syllabus taught that log books are official documents. There is so much more than position, course, speed over the ground and so on that needs to be recorded. A skipper might well get away with not keeping a log for the whole of his/her career, but when needed and it is not available he/she could find him/herself in trouble.

 

[Swampyhotdog]

I think the log book is a great memory aid for going back over old ground. I brought my boat from Turkey a few years ago, and am intending to head back thay way in the summer. I don't keep a diary so the notes I made in my log book regarding safe havens, anchorages, marinas, bolt-holes etc will be very handy.

 

[CelebrityScandel]

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif You seem not to have read my post before responding. That seems strange from one advocating the importance of keeping an "official" (sic) log which I assume the purpose of is to be read properly.

If you read my post again you will notice that I said that the log, both the day one and the 3 month one, allows crew to enter time stamped notes. I did not say anything at all that inferred it only held navigation related data as you are mistakenly claiming.

Notes can, of course, be about anything whatsoever and not just limited to navigation; for example they can include vessel operations matters, crew matters, sightseeing comments and voyage narrative; in fact all of the things Swampyhotdog mentions and anything else one desires to add. They are automatically time stamped as they are added and cannot be edited from within the application once added.

When viewing the log one can choose what one wants to review - everything or any or all of vessel position, NMEA data, manually entered notes, ECS annunciated warnings (eg such approaching a S57 charted danger, depth alarm, etc), system information, etc, etc.

So your example seems to make the convenience of an electronic log more valuable than a paper one.

Of course people can keep logs in whatever form they wish (or not at all), it is their choice, but the original poster asked specifically about means of electronic log keeping. It seems that you cannot help him.

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
My point is that log books record much more than just navigational information and I am sure that the machine referred to here is, like GPS, electronic chart plotters etc is an excellent “aid to navigation,” but that is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually Log Books record only what someone choses to put in them!

In our case we do use a Log Book for longer trips, mostly only foreign going, but the detail varies from a little to very little to very very little if it is really rough. Start and finish are always written neatly though... We do even put the occasional plot on the chart as well (via Yeoman Plotter), but these plots are actually on a perspex screen over the chart/Yeoman so they can be erased without wearing out the chart.

We also have a separate 'narrative' Log, much more interesting as it contains a diary day to day of what we did and where, with photos, postcards and even restaurant receipts and business cards for future reference. This however is filled in after the event albeit usually within 24/48hrs.

Our plotters however record data every 30 minutes and record a visible track on the screen too - enough usually to show our entire main summer cruise of around 1000mls. Much more accurate IMO.

It sounds as if the incident you referred to is one of a more 'commercial' nature, ie a sailing school or skippered charter so maybe there are different rules? I'm certainly not aware of any legal requirement for leisure boats to keep a detailed log, this is perhaps a popular myth like having a written Passage Plan.

 

[OceanWanderer]

Once ones get into the habit of an hourly log with extra 'updates' when needed, it becomes quite easy and makes great reading years later!
I have also begun to scan the pages of my log once a week or so and store it on a remote server so that if I lose the log book, I still have the copies.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry while a written log may or may not be a requirement for you it is not a requirement for us. Is news to me that electronic documents are not allowed in court; I suspect the court systems of many countries will have ground to a halt long ago if that was so. Of course that may have happened in the UK /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif but we are flagged elsewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]If your country of registration is a SOLAS signatory, then you are just as 'required' as a UK flagged vessel... which must maintain a written log, or a non deletable/editable electronic log for all international passages....

see here for a bit of detail...

Electronic documents are allowed in court.... but do not neccessarily hold as much weight as a written document as they can be tampered with.... it is for this reason that many important records such as e-mail records for US Stock exchange listed companies, and crucially in this case, electronic SOLAS log book records, must be maintained on systems that do not allow deletion or modification by anyone.....

So, your electronic log would be inadmissable as evidence, you would be in breach of SOLAS requirements and would have broken the law.

All pretty academic I guess though.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[peterb]

[ QUOTE ]
If your country of registration is a SOLAS signatory, then you are just as 'required' as a UK flagged vessel... which must maintain a written log, or a non deletable/editable electronic log for all international passages....

see here for a bit of detail...

[/ QUOTE ]

But then look here for the MCA guidance on Section 28.1.

Maintenance of a log book is not legally required under UK law for a "small" pleasure boat.