Liveaboard UK passport holder with Italian wife - Schengen 90/180 rule

[st599]

Nothing from me, ‘cos I have nothing to add, unless Wales goes unilateral and rejoins the EU. But a really interesting discussion.

More than once it has been observed that EU law has primacy over SchengenI thought, Schengen was an EU contrive so how does primacy of law come into it

I have always thought that there would be an eleventh hour deal and that now looks to be on the cards.

When the politicians have completed their pissing contest, I look forward to reading the full agreement (not just the trade deal) to see what really is what. I suspect, much of what is being discussed here, will be overtaken and there will be a much more pragmatic attitude to freedom of movement.

WhyToo many have to much to lose if there isn’t.

What's being discussed is just the Trade Deal. Nothing else is on the table. The Commons' Brexit Committee stated this during the Summer.

 

[st599]

The Article most relevant would seem to be 5.3:

The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for in Article 10

So no Residence Permit = Entry Stamp and Exit Stamp.

 

[nortada]

What's being discussed is just the Trade Deal. Nothing else is on the table. The Commons' Brexit Committee stated this during the Summer.

So you are suggesting nothing other than a trade agreement has been discussed

 

[nortada]

The Article most relevant would seem to be 5.3:

The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for in Article 10

So no Residence Permit = Entry Stamp and Exit Stamp.

Clearly you are exercised by all of this.

May I ask why

 

[syvictoria]

then how do you propose not to be deported after 90 days?
you need to get a european ID card,then you can travel,it takes about 2 weeks,but to get it you need to apply for residency which with an EU partner you can do anywhere in the EU,you are then free to travel anywhere in the eu using your EU identity card

As explained previously, and as seemingly confirmed in the Cruising Association webinar on Brexit which I've just watched the first half of (stupidly, I'd forgotten about this!), so long as an EU citizen and their spouse/close family travel together and do not stay in any one state for 90 days or more at any one time, neither residency nor registration are required.

Residency unfortunately does not allow FoM - only citizenship does. Residents are allowed to stay indefinitely in their country of residency, but are otherwise restricted to Schengen rules.

 

[syvictoria]

I hope that the CA don't mind me reproducing one of their slides here, but it is from a public webinar:



The webinar goes on to cover some of the likely difficulties involved in obtaining long stay (type D) visas, including (generally speaking) the payment of fees, the need to apply from your home country and to visit a consulate once or twice, and the need for insurance and minimum savings/income. The video can be watched here:

Brexit Issues For Cruising Sailors Addressed in RATS Webinar | CA

EDIT: Just noticed that there is also a PDF available of the webinar slides:

https://www.theca.org.uk/system/files/CA RATS Brexit Webinar 2020 12 05 (public).pdf

 

[syvictoria]

So you are suggesting nothing other than a trade agreement has been discussed

Not necessarily 'nothing other than', but certainly my MP confirmed last month that:

"As part of its plans for this new immigration system, the Government has said that it expects to grant EU nationals up to six months visa-free travel to the UK for tourism. I know that many people, including recreational boaters and second homeowners, would like this to be reciprocated by the EU.

Unfortunately, the current negotiations on our future relationship with the EU do not cover this issue. The EU has already legislated to provide UK nationals with visa-free travel to EU countries for short stays of up to 90 days in every 180-day period."

which unfortunately suggests that nothing's likely to come out of the current talks to directly assist with what's being discussion here.

 

[st599]

Clearly you are exercised by all of this.

May I ask why

I'm not exercised at all. I've taken the time to arrange access to a visa - but the OP needs to read the text carefully. The lack of a residency permit is an issue - it means an entry and exit stamp.

As for the CA lecture - I'm dubious as the information on Carnets is incorrect.

 

[atol]

The Article most relevant would seem to be 5.3:

The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for in Article 10

So no Residence Permit = Entry Stamp and Exit Stamp.

my mother travels all over the EU using her Hungarian ID card if asked her uk passport,which they do not stamp.
good luck not getting your passport stamped without an EU ID card

 

[syvictoria]

I'm not exercised at all. I've taken the time to arrange access to a visa - but the OP needs to read the text carefully. The lack of a residency permit is an issue - it means an entry and exit stamp.

As for the CA lecture - I'm dubious as the information on Carnets is incorrect.

If travelling together with the EU spouse, the presence or lack of entry/exit stamps should surely be irrelevant. The lack of stamp will however be important for those who have residency and do not want their Schengen clock to start/stop when en route to/from their county of residence (I think).

 

[syvictoria]

As for the CA lecture - I'm dubious as the information on Carnets is incorrect.

So, because of one inaccuracy (assuming that's so), you deem the entire contents of the video dubious!?

 

[atol]

If travelling together with the EU spouse, the presence or lack of entry/exit stamps should surely be irrelevant. The lack of stamp will however be important for those who have residency and do not want their Schengen clock to start/stop when en route to/from their county of residence (I think).

lack of a stamp in the absence of a supporting ID/residence card would make you an illegal alien

 

[syvictoria]

my mother travels all over the EU using her Hungarian ID card if asked her uk passport,which they do not stamp.
good luck not getting your passport stamped without an EU ID card

Yes, because Hungary is in the EU, and the UK is still in the transition period. Once the transition period has ended, any Brit visiting the EU under Schengen rules will need either a passport stamp or some other electronic record of their entry/exit. Most will not have an EU ID card!

 

[atol]

Yes, because Hungary is in the EU, and the UK is still in the transition period. Once the transition period has ended, any Brit visiting the EU under Schengen rules will need either a passport stamp or some other electronic record of their entry/exit. Most will not have an EU ID card!

they have been stamping and or scanning uk passports since 2019 when transition began

 

[syvictoria]

lack of a stamp in the absence of a supporting ID/residence card would make you an illegal alien

To be perfectly honest, I don't at present know whether those travelling with an EU spouse will get a passport stamp or not. What is clear it would seem however is that, aside from a valid passport each, the other key document will be a certificate confirming the relationship/marriage/civil partnership. This will surely prove that the non-EU spouse is not an illegal alien.

They were scanning passports long before 2019 I think. Where the data is being recorded/used may of course have changed since then!

 

[atol]

To be perfectly honest, I don't at present know whether those travelling with an EU spouse will get a passport stamp or not. What is clear it would seem however is that, aside from a valid passport each, the other key document will be a certificate confirming the relationship/marriage/civil partnership. This will surely prove that the non-EU spouse is not an illegal alien.

They were scanning passports long before 2019 I think. Where the data is being recorded/used may of course have changed since then however!

only if you are in the process of applying for your residence ID card after the first 90 days

 

[syvictoria]

only if you are in the process of applying for your residence ID card after the first 90 days

We won't be applying for residency and we won't be staying continuously in any one state for over 90 days!

 

[atol]

We won't be applying for residency and we won't be staying continuously in any one state for over 90 days!

just wear a pirate hat when the immigration board your boat!
However most likley the situation will resolve itself in the next few years if people stay away.

currently we all seem to be banned from europe unless residents due to covid,this may carry on untill 70% of europe has been vaccinated

 

[BurnitBlue]

Over five years continual residence is treated as automatic rights of citizenship. That means there is no difference between a five year resident and a citizen of that country. This is documented in the same source as the link given by atol. Information in black and white is given regarding residency, whether by marriage, minimum time before death or divoce, children whether still minor, custody work, studies etc etc etc. The part applicable to me and others who have proven residency for over five continuous years changes the ball game big time. After Five years residence an automatic change of status to permanent residence is triggered.

This means 360/360 in all member states of the EU.

I know this because a few month ago I went into the Swedish Tax office. A place most Swedes avoid as if it were the Lubjanka building in Moscow or Gestapo headquarters in Berlin. Anyway, I strode in there full of confidence because being British I am afraid of nothing. In one bound I was banging the bell on the desk while also showing my impatiance that the woman took so long to get there. To ease the stress for her I gave her my killer smile. Joking apart, that done I meekly asked why I had no documentation in writing that I was a permanent resident. She said I could get an EU identity card or a Swedish passport but I had to pay the fee to get one. Just like in UK a citizen can go from birth to grave without one. Apparantly it is automatic whether I applied or not. To prove it, there and then she scanned my bar code number off my drivers licence and there it was on her monitor. Permanent residence just like the border guards would see.

She did advise me to apply for my EU card or Swedish passport to avoid hassle with my UK passport. Even if it was the Gold Standard of all passports and the envy of the world it will get stamped and logged unnecessarily. Buroucracy does mean that without the paper to prove it, you don't even exist.

So there. Get your residance and keep it for five years.

 

[syvictoria]

So there. Get your residance and keep it for five years.

Unfortunately I suspect that citizenship through residency/naturalisation isn't a viable option for most on here, although I don't doubt that it's great if you do fulfil the requirements and have relocated and settled elsewhere permanently and for a prolonged period - exactly as it's intended to be. Sadly not much help for the continuously cruising liveaboard, part time EU resident, or current UK resident.

Congrats on your new ID card and passport though!!! ?