Liveaboard UK passport holder with Italian wife - Schengen 90/180 rule

[Graham376]

Over five years continual residence is treated as automatic rights of citizenship. That means there is no difference between a five year resident and a citizen of that country.

That may be the case in Sweden but certainly not elsewhere. Citizens have benefits not available to permanent or temporary 5 year residents.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Unfortunately I suspect that citizenship through residency/naturalisation isn't a viable option for most on here, although I don't doubt that it's great if you do fulfil the requirements and have relocated and settled elsewhere permanently and for a prolonged period - exactly as it's intended to be. Sadly not much help for the continuously cruising liveaboard, part time EU resident, or current UK resident.

Congrats on your new ID card and passport though!!! ?

I agree completely. My post was basically aimed at those cruisers who apply for residency in Greece or Portugal as a convenience to cruise in that particular member state for more than 90 days. If successful in getting residency for that reason, it would be good to maintain that state for a further four years. My point is that it is not (at this time) necessary to jump the hoops for a passport which is different in each member state to get 360/360. It is an EU wide part of the schengen law that five year residency enjoy the same rights as a citizen of that country.

 

[syvictoria]

That may be the case in Sweden but certainly not elsewhere. Citizens have benefits not available to permanent or temporary 5 year residents.

I think the rules vary from country to country (a quick google suggests that naturalisation can be applied for after six years of residence in Portugal?), but citizenship by naturalisation certainly isn't (to my knowledge) an automatic right anywhere and must be applied for. There may very well also be other requirements to fulfil too, such as passing a language test.

 

[syvictoria]

I agree completely. My post was basically aimed at those cruisers who apply for residency in Greece or Portugal as a convenience to cruise in that particular member state for more than 90 days. If successful in getting residency for that reason, it would be good to maintain that state for a further four years. My point is that it is not (at this time) necessary to jump the hoops for a passport which is different in each member state to get 360/360. It is an EU wide part of the schengen law that five year residency enjoy the same rights as a citizen of that country.

Yes, but there is a huge difference between obtaining temporary residency and fulfilling the continuous residency requirements needed to apply for naturalisation. Just having temp residency for five years is almost certainly not enough.

 

[Graham376]

Yes, but there is a huge difference between obtaining temporary residency and fulfilling the continuous residency requirements needed to apply for naturalisation. Just having temp residency for five years is almost certainly not enough.

Agree. 5 year residence is temporary and requires the holder to be resident. When applying for permanent or citizenship status, far more requirements have to be met. Anyone can apply at the times specifies but there's no automatic approval. I went down the permanent route rather than citizenship although I have automatic right to apply for the latter due to marriage.

 

[Graham376]

It is an EU wide part of the schengen law that five year residency enjoy the same rights as a citizen of that country.

Fake news. All the temporary residence gives is the right to reside in that country, far different to a citizen's rights.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Yes, but there is a huge difference between obtaining temporary residency and fulfilling the continuous residency requirements needed to apply for naturalisation. Just having temp residency for five years is almost certainly not enough.

I have never applied for anything in Sweden except to swap my driving licence yet I have permanent residency. It was automatic. It is stated in black and white in the link also provided by atol that a permanent resident of a member state has the same rights as a citizen of that member state. I could not give a frogs ass about individual requirements for permanent residence in 27 different member states.

It is a Schengen rule that for border control, permanent residency conveys the same rights as a citizen of that member state. Imagine the chaos if border guards had to seperate and decide on the rules for 27 different states about residency rules in 27 different languages.

Immigration rules still apply. For instance staying more than 180 days in another member state continuously can cause a conflict with residency. It is also known that being absent from the permanent residant state for kore than two years can trigger a loss of permanent residency.

I am certainly not going to waste my time looking through the rules for 27 different countries. It is enough for me to know that a permanent resident of a member state country has the same rights as a citizen of that country at the border of a Schengen country. Choose your country, study the rules, do your own study, make your own decision.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Fake news. All the temporary residence gives is the right to reside in that country, far different to a citizen's rights.

Permanent residency is different to Temporary residence. It is written down in black and white that a Permanent Resident has the same rights as a citizen of that country. I am only concerned with the 90/180 rule. Of course citizenship has extra rights like standing for election etc. I also agree a passport is very convenient to show at borders, but as there are no borders between Schengen countries my rights granted as a Permanent resident (of Sweden if you must nit-pick) will do very nicely. As far as I am concerned (also the EU) residence and citizenship are the province of the individual member state. If a member state considers Permanent Residents have the same rights as their citizens then so be it.

I am not going to continue batting this particular ball around these members of the nit-pickers club. In such complex areas open to different interpretations I am sure it will end up tested in the courts before clsrification is made.

 

[syvictoria]

@BurnitBlue : No one is nit-picking at you personally. It's simply been pointed out that different countries have different requirements and rules, and that permanent residency/citizenship isn't a practical solution for everyone. Unlike the Schengen rules, temporary and permanent residency and citizenship are very much a sovereign matter. There's certainly no need for any falling out!

 

[BurnitBlue]

@BurnitBlue : No one is nit-picking at you personally. It's simply been pointed out that different countries have different requirements and rules, and that permanent residency/citizenship isn't a practical solution for everyone. Unlike the Schengen rules, temporary and permanent residency and citizenship are very much a sovereign matter. There's certainly no need for any falling out!

No offence taken or falling out, I was just getting a bit irritable with the events in UK in general.

I just got a message from the British Embassy in Stockholm by snail mail two days ago. That's right, paper, envelopes and letterbox stuff. I have started a new post as it may be applicable to present residents in Portugal and Greece.

 

[nortada]

No offence taken or falling out, I was just getting a bit irritable with the events in UK in general.

I just got a message from the British Embassy in Stockholm by snail mail two days ago. That's right, paper, envelopes and letterbox stuff. I have started a new post as it may be applicable to present residents in Portugal and Greece.

Thanks for the thread - the biometric permit issue has been active in Portugal for the last couple of weeks - nothing like planning ahead.?

Because of the short time scale, rather than issuing the permit, we are getting an interim A4 document with a QR code so we can still enter the Schengen Zone as EU residents after 31/12/20.

Fortunately, as the whole procedure is on line, Brits with Portuguese residency, outside the Schengen Zone will be able to get their QR code and return to the EU.

It will interesting to see how other EU countries (say Spain or Italy) deal with a Brit passport holder who pitches up with a scruffy bit of A4 with Portuguese QR code, expecting to enter the country as EU resident

 

[Metabarca]

Just a small point: going back to MapisM's point about being able to get an Italian passport if you're married to an Italian (other ways are via 5 years of residence backed by five years of tax declarations, and via ius sangria, ie descent): this is true, but there is now a fairly basic Italian language test you need to pass. The whole process takes about two years within Italy, probably more via a consulate in London, as the consulates are currently being swamped by requests, and there's a certain amount of paperwork to submit, although everything is initially submitted online. Been there, done that!

 

[nortada]

Just a small point: going back to MapisM's point about being able to get an Italian passport if you're married to an Italian (other ways are via 5 years of residence backed by five years of tax declarations, and via ius sangria, ie descent): this is true, but there is now a fairly basic Italian language test you need to pass. The whole process takes about two years within Italy, probably more via a consulate in London, as the consulates are currently being swamped by requests, and there's a certain amount of paperwork to submit, although everything is initially submitted online. Been there, done that!

‘Now a fairly basic Italian test you need to pass’ is this a new requirement

 

[Kelpie]

Did we get a definitive answer on this? I've gone through the whole thread but still quite confused.

If the CA are correct it appears that the immediate family of an EU citizen should be able to enter and remain in a member state for up to 90 days, then move on to a different member state for the next 90, and so on.

If so that is absolutely game changing, for my plans at least.

 

[Graham376]

Did we get a definitive answer on this? I've gone through the whole thread but still quite confused.

I emailed UK embassy in Lisbon about this and so far haven't received a reply.

 

[Graham376]

Maybe there's some info here - Travel documents for non-EU family members - Your Europe (europa.eu)

 

[syvictoria]

Maybe there's some info here - Travel documents for non-EU family members - Your Europe (europa.eu)

Excellent! That page seems to put thing's far more succinctly than I've seen before, and most importantly, makes no reference to needing to be resident in the EU.

I thought it worth copying the main text here too:

Travelling in the EU with your non-EU family members
Under EU rules, you have the right to travel together with your core family members (non-EU spouse, children, dependent parents or dependent grandparents) to an EU country other than the one you are a national of. If you have moved to another EU country, they can also join you there. These rules also apply to your non-EU registered partner if the country they are travelling to considers registered partnerships as equivalent to marriage.
Other non-EU extended family members - such as siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, as well as your non-EU registered partner (in countries where registered partnerships are not considered as equivalent to marriage) - may under certain conditions be entitled to have their entry facilitated when travelling together with you of when joining you in another EU country. EU countries do not automatically have to grant this right but they do at least have to consider the request.
Your non-EU family members must carry a valid passport at all times and, depending on the country they are from, they may also have to show an entry visa at the border.
There are a number of countries (see Annex II) whose nationals do not need a visa to visit the EU for three months or less. The list of countries whose nationals require visas to travel to the United Kingdom or Ireland differs slightly from other EU countries.
Contact the consulate or embassy of the country you are travelling to well in advance to find out which documents your non-EU family member will be asked to present at the border.

(Edited as I seem to have managed to merge two posts together! Doh!)

 

[AndersG]

Excellent! That page seems to put thing's far more succinctly than I've seen before, and most importantly, makes no reference to needing to be resident in the EU.

It says "There are a number of countries (see Annex II) whose nationals do not need a visa to visit the EU for three months or less."
Why would that be excellent?

 

[syvictoria]

It says "There are a number of countries (see Annex II) whose nationals do not need a visa to visit the EU for three months or less."
Why would that be excellent?

The 'Excellent' aspect is that the page confirms that EU nationals/citizens (passport holders, essentially) have the right to travel together with their core family members including non-EU spouse, children, etc. This is HUGE for those fortunate enough to hold dual citizenship.

There is still a need to move EU states each (maximum) 90 days to avoid the need to register for temporary residency (which the non-EU family member wouldn't easily be able to fulfil the requirements for), but unlike the 90/180 rule, this 90 day rule is reset by simply crossing an internal border (i.e.: it enables continuous travel).

 

[AndersG]

The 'Excellent' aspect is that the page confirms that EU nationals/citizens (passport holders, essentially) have the right to travel together with their core family members including non-EU spouse, children, etc. This is HUGE for those fortunate enough to hold dual citizenship.

There is still a need to move EU states each (maximum) 90 days to avoid the need to register for temporary residency (which the non-EU family member wouldn't easily be able to fulfil the requirements for), but unlike the 90/180 rule, this 90 day rule is reset by simply crossing an internal border (i.e.: it enables continuous travel).

I wish it did say that since it would solve our problem but it does not say that. It clearly says that the non EU citizen is limited to 3 months in the EU.