Liveaboard UK passport holder with Italian wife - Schengen 90/180 rule

[syvictoria]

no 90/180 unless you go to a non shengen country for 90 days like croatia,albania,bulgaria rumania etc

I'm sorry to keep banging on about this, but this subject really matters to me... Where is this stated please? I thought that EU rights always trumped Schengen rights? Otherwise, why have we British nationals enjoyed FoM whilst part of the EU?

 

[atol]

I'm sorry to keep banging on about this, but this subject really matters to me... Where is this stated please? I thought that EU rights always trumped Schengen rights? Otherwise, why have we British nationals enjoyed FoM whilst part of the EU?

Because we were EU citizens,and have now chosen to be no longer be EU citizens and given up any right to freedom of movement along with any other right that we might have had as a citizen,from now on you are an Immigrant,and treated as such.
as to moving between member states,you need to think of all the shengan countries together as one country like the usa,where you require only 1 visa for entry but can travel to any of the 51 states whilst your visa is valid and apply for an extension when it runs out or leave,failure to leave you are deported.

 

[Graham376]

if you check the link i posted it is quite clear,in black and white direct from the EU government website,no residence,no stay.
Your non-EU spouse and children's residence rights in the EU

What I read from that document is, if you stay for more than 3 months in one country, you have to register your presence. I couldn't find anywhere it says I can't travel with my EU citizen wife. Can you copy and paste that bit please?

Edit - read this - Travel documents for non-EU family members - Your Europe (europa.eu)

Under EU rules, you have the right to travel together with your core family members (non-EU spouse, children, dependent parents or dependent grandparents) to an EU country other than the one you are a national of.

 

[syvictoria]

Because we were EU citizens,and have now chosen to be no longer be EU citizens and given up any right to freedom of movement along with any other right that we might have had as a citizen,from now on you are an Immigrant,and treated as such.
as to moving between member states,you need to think of all the shengan countries together as one country like the usa,where you require only 1 visa for entry but can travel to any of the 51 states whilst your visa is valid and apply for an extension when it runs out or leave,failure to leave you are deported.

I understand and agree with all that you've said, with regards to third country nationals per se.

What I still question is which set of laws take precedence when the third country national is also a non-EU spouse? Is it EU or Schengen rules that must be followed, as the two are not the same?

As British EU citizens, it was EU rules that took precedence for us historically, and hence us having full FoM 365/365 without the UK being part of Schengen. Will EU law not therefore still be the overriding law in the non-EU spouse situation?

 

[atol]

What I read from that document is, if you stay for more than 3 months in one country, you have to register your presence. I couldn't find anywhere it says I can't travel with my EU citizen wife. Can you copy and paste that bit please?

semantics, it is your passport that defines if you can travel.
Could you travel with your EU wife if you had no passport or if your passport was out of date?

 

[syvictoria]

semantics, it is your passport that defines if you can travel.
Could you travel with your EU wife if you had no passport or if your passport was out of date?

"2.The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen."

 

[atol]

I understand and agree with all that you've said, with regards to third country nationals per se.

What I still question is which set of laws take precedence when the third country national is also a non-EU spouse? Is it EU or Schengen rules that must be followed, as the two are not the same?

As British EU citizens, it was EU rules that took precedence for us historically, and hence us having full FoM 365/365 without the UK being part of Schengen. Will EU law not therefore still be the overriding law in the non-EU spouse situation?

that you will have to ask when you apply for your residence permit as any variation will be country specific,otherwise 90/180 applies

 

[Graham376]

Although the document I quoted above says non EU spouses can travel with their citizen spouse, it does (along with other publications) say that if stay is longer than 3 months in the country, residence has to be registered. Despite many searches, I can't find anything which states non EU family can keep travelling throughout EU indefinitely without being subject to the 90 day rule. Most if not all publications define the rules when EU citizen spouse resides another country to their own and families right to join him/her there, not people constantly on the move. My own thoughts are that we're still limited to 90 days outside of our country of residence.

 

[atol]

"2.The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen."

yes and paragraph 1 says that they need to be registered
Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.
EUR-Lex - 02004L0038-20110616 - EN - EUR-Lex


Right of entry
1. Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents applicable to national border controls, Member States shall grant Union citizens leave to enter their territory with a valid identity card or passport and shall grant family members who are not nationals of a Member State leave to enter their territory with a valid passport.
No entry visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on Union citizens.
2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.
Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.
3. The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for in Article 10.
4. Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.
5. The Member State may require the person concerned to report his/her presence within its territory within a reasonable and non-discriminatory period of time. Failure to comply with this requirement may make the person concerned liable to proportionate and non-discriminatory sanctions.

 

[atol]

Although the document I quoted above says non EU spouses can travel with their citizen spouse, it does (along with other publications) say that if stay is longer than 3 months in the country, residence has to be registered. Despite many searches, I can't find anything which states non EU family can keep travelling throughout EU indefinitely without being subject to the 90 day rule. Most if not all publications define the rules when EU citizen spouse resides another country to their own and families right to join him/her there, not people constantly on the move. My own thoughts are that we're still limited to 90 days outside of our country of residence.

correct

 

[syvictoria]

yes and paragraph 1 says that they need to be registered
Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.
EUR-Lex - 02004L0038-20110616 - EN - EUR-Lex


Right of entry
1. Without prejudice to the provisions on travel documents applicable to national border controls, Member States shall grant Union citizens leave to enter their territory with a valid identity card or passport and shall grant family members who are not nationals of a Member State leave to enter their territory with a valid passport.
No entry visa or equivalent formality may be imposed on Union citizens.
2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.
Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.
3. The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit stamp in the passport of family members who are not nationals of a Member State provided that they present the residence card provided for in Article 10.
4. Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.
5. The Member State may require the person concerned to report his/her presence within its territory within a reasonable and non-discriminatory period of time. Failure to comply with this requirement may make the person concerned liable to proportionate and non-discriminatory sanctions.

No, as I stated in post #10, paragraph 1 of Article 6 states:
1.Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.

The right of entry info quoted above makes no reference to 90 days, nor Schengen.

 

[Graham376]

I have just written to the EU enquiry site asking - If a non-EU citizen married to an EU citizen is limited to 90/180 in Schegen countries other than country of residence. Will post the reply in due course.

 

[atol]

No, as I stated in post #10, paragraph 1 of Article 6 states:
1.Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.

The right of entry info quoted above makes no reference to 90 days, nor Schengen.

3 months is generally considered to be 90 days,and long enough to apply for residence,once you have applied for residence and waiting for your residence card and new ID you can overstay as your 90/180 no longer applies,with an EU id card and residence card you can travel any where in the eu with your partner/family

 

[smithadr]

wow ... obviously a lot of interest in this ... many thanks all of you for your input ..... to clarify....

- I am not seeking residence in any country

- As I understand it, since I have been married to my Italian wife for more than 3 years I can apply for an Italian EU passport. However, I'm fairly sure I read that I have to reach a certain level of fluency in Italian to do this and, currently, I speak no Italian. Maybe I have got this wrong in which case problem solved....

Also,

- I have submitted the question I posted here to the EU via their website ... they say they'll get back to me within a week but I'm not holding my breath! If a get a useful reply I will post it here.

- The crusing association webinar on Brexit does strongly suggest that I will be able to exceed 90 days in 180 as long as I am with my EU wife ... see video at 15 mins 25 secs ( video )

 

[syvictoria]

3 months is generally considered to be 90 days,and long enough to apply for residence,once you have applied for residence and waiting for your residence card and new ID you can overstay as your 90/180 no longer applies,with an EU id card and residence card you can travel any where in the eu with your partner/family

For the last time, I do not intend to apply for residency. The plan would be to move to another EU state before the expiry of 90 days - entirely, I believe, within the law.

 

[syvictoria]

I have just written to the EU enquiry site asking - If a non-EU citizen married to an EU citizen is limited to 90/180 in Schegen countries other than country of residence. Will post the reply in due course.

Brilliant! I didn't know that there was such an easy route to contact. Thank you.

 

[syvictoria]

- I have submitted the question I posted here to the EU via their website ... they say they'll get back to me within a week but I'm not holding my breath! If a get a useful reply I will post it here.

- The crusing association webinar on Brexit does strongly suggest that I will be able to exceed 90 days in 180 as long as I am with my EU wife ... see video at 15 mins 25 secs ( video )

Thank you.

 

[st599]

- The crusing association webinar on Brexit does strongly suggest that I will be able to exceed 90 days in 180 as long as I am with my EU wife ... see video at 15 mins 25 secs ( video )

I'd consult a lawyer as elsewhere in this video he says that an ATA Carnet would be a good idea for tools.

 

[atol]

For the last time, I do not intend to apply for residency. The plan would be to move to another EU state before the expiry of 90 days - entirely, I believe, within the law.

then how do you propose not to be deported after 90 days?
you need to get a european ID card,then you can travel,it takes about 2 weeks,but to get it you need to apply for residency which with an EU partner you can do anywhere in the EU,you are then free to travel anywhere in the eu using your EU identity card

 

[nortada]

Nothing from me, ‘cos I have nothing to add, unless Wales goes unilateral and rejoins the EU. But a really interesting discussion.

More than once it has been observed that EU law has primacy over SchengenI thought, Schengen was an EU contrive so how does primacy of law come into it

I have always thought that there would be an eleventh hour deal and that now looks to be on the cards.

When the politicians have completed their pissing contest, I look forward to reading the full agreement (not just the trade deal) to see what really is what. I suspect, much of what is being discussed here, will be overtaken and there will be a much more pragmatic attitude to freedom of movement.

WhyToo many have to much to lose if there isn’t.