Lithium. Really?

[Arcady]

Possibly your insurance company's restrictive terms. Two of the big companies - GJW and Bishop Skinner - disallow charging when not on board which makes a lithium install less useful. I have no issue with lithium, but the proponents need to check their policy small print, because this restrictive stuff is creeping in unannounced and buried deep in reams of paperwork.

Interesting. I’ve just had an exchange with GJW regarding the proposed installation of LiFePo4 domestic batteries. They assured me that providing it was a professional installation it would be covered under the existing policy. We discussed the clause that lithium batteries should not be left on charge whilst away from the boat, to which they clarified that this referred to small portable items such as phones, laptops, tools et cetera. Apparently it would be perfectly acceptable to leave the domestic batteries permanently connected to shorepower battery charging or indeed solar panel charging. I thought that was a very sensible compromise.

Edit: Neither was there an increased premium for the proposed LiFePo4 installation.

 

[Bouba]

Interesting. I’ve just had an exchange with GJW regarding the proposed installation of LiFePo4 domestic batteries. They assured me that providing it was a professional installation it would be covered under the existing policy. We discussed the clause that lithium batteries should not be left on charge whilst away from the boat, to which they clarified that this referred to small portable items such as phones, laptops, tools et cetera. Apparently it would be perfectly acceptable to leave the domestic batteries permanently connected to shorepower battery charging or indeed solar panel charging. I thought that was a very sensible compromise.

How much ? and for what size installation ?

 

[lustyd]

Edit: Neither was there an increased premium for the proposed LiFePo4 installation.

Why would there be? It reduces risk compared to lead, whether professionally installed or not.

 

[Arcady]

How much ? and for what size installation ?

1840 Ah. (Actually 920Ah at 24v). Premium just a tad over 0.46% of insured value.

 

[Arcady]

Why would there be? It reduces risk compared to lead, whether professionally installed or not.

Yes, I agree with you.

 

[Sea Change]

Agree...alter the focus of the highly beneficial financial regime, and perhaps 75% of these EV evangelists would move on...just as they typically did from big petrol saloons to German "performance diesels".
....oh, and weren't we told that those same performance diesels going to "save the planet" too, despite offering more usable performance (in a heavier vehicle) than many of the petrol cars they replaced?

Most of us still remember when the only diesel Merc we'd see was a taxi!

I can pull numbers out of my fundament too. Surveys regularly show that the overwhelming majority of EV drivers are very happy with their choice and do not plan to return to IC.

Incidentally, I've spent the last two days replacing the exhaust on my old Astra. My next car will not have an exhaust

 

[Bouba]

Incidentally, I've spent the last two days replacing the exhaust on my old Astra. My next car will not have an exhaust

Won’t that make it it very noisy

 

[jakew009]

Interesting. I’ve just had an exchange with GJW regarding the proposed installation of LiFePo4 domestic batteries. They assured me that providing it was a professional installation it would be covered under the existing policy. We discussed the clause that lithium batteries should not be left on charge whilst away from the boat, to which they clarified that this referred to small portable items such as phones, laptops, tools et cetera. Apparently it would be perfectly acceptable to leave the domestic batteries permanently connected to shorepower battery charging or indeed solar panel charging. I thought that was a very sensible compromise.

Edit: Neither was there an increased premium for the proposed LiFePo4 installation.

If you push back they will back down on the “professional” installation bit. They could not define what a professional meant in reality.

 

[st599]

Interesting. I’ve just had an exchange with GJW regarding the proposed installation of LiFePo4 domestic batteries. They assured me that providing it was a professional installation it would be covered under the existing policy. We discussed the clause that lithium batteries should not be left on charge whilst away from the boat, to which they clarified that this referred to small portable items such as phones, laptops, tools et cetera. Apparently it would be perfectly acceptable to leave the domestic batteries permanently connected to shorepower battery charging or indeed solar panel charging. I thought that was a very sensible compromise.

Edit: Neither was there an increased premium for the proposed LiFePo4 installation.

Doesn't that cause the issue though? There being neither a standard to certify against nor a professional recognition scheme for small vessel electricians, how do you prove you got a professional install?

 

[Bouba]

I appreciate when people say that legal or contractual technicalities are on our side…but I’m not convinced that will cause an insurance company to cave in

 

[Stemar]

Doesn't that cause the issue though? There being neither a standard to certify against nor a professional recognition scheme for small vessel electricians, how do you prove you got a professional install?

A printed receipt?

Of course, it proves nothing - I doubt It would take me longer than 5 minutes to produce something, but if there's a website to back it up?

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Doesn't that cause the issue though? There being neither a standard to certify against nor a professional recognition scheme for small vessel electricians, how do you prove you got a professional install?

It's not about the quality of the install. It's about the insurance company being able to reclaim losses from the liability insurance of the business who did the install.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

It's not about the quality of the install. It's about the insurance company being able to reclaim losses from the liability insurance of the business who did the install.

Sometimes it feels like a grim world we live in.

 

[Graham376]

Repeat after me...what is Europe’s best selling car ?
Tesla Model Y Becomes Best Selling Car in Europe With 26K Units Sold in Sept - Vehiclesuggest

Various sites list the Dacia Sandero as the best selling car in Europe in '24 and '25, in this one Tesla comes fourth - https://www.motor1.com/news/749057/europe-best-selling-car-2024-final-figures/

 

[geem]

Various sites list the Dacia Sandero as the best selling car in Europe in '24 and '25, in this one Tesla comes fourth - https://www.motor1.com/news/749057/europe-best-selling-car-2024-final-figures/

That's what my search revealed as well

 

[jakew009]

Doesn't that cause the issue though? There being neither a standard to certify against nor a professional recognition scheme for small vessel electricians, how do you prove you got a professional install?

As above, I pushed back over and over again, their position became more and more untenable. Eventually we got here.

- the charging clause only applies to lithium powered toys / portable devices, not the house battery system.

- the professional install nonsense is deleted entirely

 

[Sea Change]

Has anybody pushed back on Pants' standard terms?

 

[Arcady]

It's not about the quality of the install. It's about the insurance company being able to reclaim losses from the liability insurance of the business who did the install.

I’m pretty sure that is exactly the reason!

 

[Bouba]

There is probably also another reason....and that is what happens when people start doing DIY work on their electric cars ?.....at the moment it probably isn’t an issue...but eventually people are going to acquire the knowledge...and then what ?...the scale of the claims could be enormous

 

[jakew009]

There is probably also another reason....and that is what happens when people start doing DIY work on their electric cars ?.....at the moment it probably isn’t an issue...but eventually people are going to acquire the knowledge...and then what ?...the scale of the claims could be enormous

I don’t really see how it’s any different to people DIY fitting diesel heaters. There are thousands of horrendous installs out there but they rarely cause serious problems.

I’m also unsure how a LFP battery is really any more dangerous than a lead acid battery. The only real safety different is the potential short circuit current but the BMS will deal with that 99.xx percent of the time.