Lithium. Really?

[MikeBz]

Not great for retrofit to anything 12 or 24v. The voltage range is 15v to 8v to use the 100% capacity. How would you boat handle those voltages. If you narrow your operating voltages to replicate lead voltages, you lose capacity so need more batteries.
I am yet to be convinced they will replace lithium

Thanks, I wasn’t aware of that (have now looked it up and seen the graphs). Maybe this is less of a problem in vehicles (and static power stations), I guess because they have a huge number of cells and use an inverter so the total “source” DC voltage isn’t critical?

CATL will start production of an NA battery this year with an energy density of 175Wh/kg, cost of $19/kWh, 5 x life of Lithium (not sure which one) and 90% capacity at -40C. The lower end of the EV market will start to use NA in some volume IMO.

I think that right now battery technology is about where combustion engines were in the 1920s or 30s - it’s got a long way to go but it’s moving fast. That’s why I’d be reluctant to buy an EV now even if I could afford it, unless I was wealthy enough to be able to blow thousands of pounds a year on vehicle depreciation (which I probably could, but still wouldn’t, if I didn’t own a boat).

Anyway I’m really drifting off topic here so I’ll shut up.

 

[Sea Change]

I’d be reluctant to buy an EV now even if I could afford it, unless I was wealthy enough to be able to blow thousands of pounds a year on vehicle depreciation (which I probably could, but still wouldn’t, if I didn’t own a boat).

EVs are already far cheaper to run than ICE, and barely any more expensive to buy new. It already makes sense to swap, even though they are going to get better in the future.

 

[zoidberg]

EVs are already far cheaper to run than ICE, and barely any more expensive to buy new. It already makes sense to swap, even though they are going to get better in the future.

That's one opinion, and I respect your right to hold an opinion. However, there are other opinions - including....
'If it ain't broke, don't fix it!'

 

[Sea Change]

That's one opinion, and I respect your right to hold an opinion. However, there are other opinions - including....
'If it ain't broke, don't fix it!'

Agreed, there is always a cost to changing vehicle, and if you don't need to do it, then why would you?
It is simply a fact though that running an EV can be much cheaper than running an ICEV. I see figures of 2-3p/mile using overnight cheap tariffs. Or free if you have solar.
My bog standard petrol car costs about 18p/mile. To a skinflint like me, it's an absolute no brainer, and next time I need to change car, I'll be going electric.

 

[lustyd]

EVs are already far cheaper to run than ICE

Due to the current tax regime. That can and most certainly will change as government want more money. It’s an easy target, one of the reasons electric scooters were so quickly dismissed despite being the obvious solution.

 

[Sea Change]

Due to the current tax regime. That can and most certainly will change as government want more money. It’s an easy target, one of the reasons electric scooters were so quickly dismissed despite being the obvious solution.

No, I'm just talking about the marginal cost per mile for the energy to move the car.

If you want to work out the fixed costs of ownership then it gets pretty messy and you can basically prove any point you want depending on what numbers you put in.
E.g. an old banger ICEV that barely scrapes through its MOT, has 3rd party insurance, is at the bottom of the depreciation curve, is in a favourable tax bracket, and does almost no mileage per year, will obviously cost less in total than a brand new EV on comprehensive insurance and facing steep depreciation.

 

[lustyd]

No, I'm just talking about the marginal cost per mile for the energy to move the car.

Me too. Petrol and diesel cost is mostly tax, electricity almost none. That can and most likely will change at some point, probably with a mileage based tax to compensate for lost revenue on fuels.

I’m not anti-electric, but to ignore the reality of modern governments is a folly, especially when the purchase cost is so much higher that you need lower running costs to compensate. Hopefully it’ll be a few years before EV owners are screwed over, but they will be screwed over and we already see many instances where “road tax” is cheaper on ICE cars.

Personally I want an electric scooter for transport and I’d like to see a blanket ban on anything larger than a bike in towns and cities to improve safety for small efficient modes of transport.

 

[geem]

Me too. Petrol and diesel cost is mostly tax, electricity almost none. That can and most likely will change at some point, probably with a mileage based tax to compensate for lost revenue on fuels.

I’m not anti-electric, but to ignore the reality of modern governments is a folly, especially when the purchase cost is so much higher that you need lower running costs to compensate. Hopefully it’ll be a few years before EV owners are screwed over, but they will be screwed over and we already see many instances where “road tax” is cheaper on ICE cars.

Personally I want an electric scooter for transport and I’d like to see a blanket ban on anything larger than a bike in towns and cities to improve safety for small efficient modes of transport.

I was in Cuba 8 years ago and they had electric scooters in abundance. No number plates on them. Clean and silent. They were full size scooters looking very much like an old Vespa. I am surprised we don't see these on British roads. They make so much sense, apart from the sh1tty UK weather

 

[Sea Change]

Me too. Petrol and diesel cost is mostly tax, electricity almost none. That can and most likely will change at some point, probably with a mileage based tax to compensate for lost revenue on fuels.

I’m not anti-electric, but to ignore the reality of modern governments is a folly, especially when the purchase cost is so much higher that you need lower running costs to compensate. Hopefully it’ll be a few years before EV owners are screwed over, but they will be screwed over and we already see many instances where “road tax” is cheaper on ICE cars.

Personally I want an electric scooter for transport and I’d like to see a blanket ban on anything larger than a bike in towns and cities to improve safety for small efficient modes of transport.

Yes a cost per mile might eventually come in.
The electricity itself can't really be taxed as a road fuel, especially if you're generating it yourself.
But I think all of that is a long way in the future. And I don't see a future government slashing fuel duty.

 

[Bouba]

Thanks, I wasn’t aware of that (have now looked it up and seen the graphs). Maybe this is less of a problem in vehicles (and static power stations), I guess because they have a huge number of cells and use an inverter so the total “source” DC voltage isn’t critical?

CATL will start production of an NA battery this year with an energy density of 175Wh/kg, cost of $19/kWh, 5 x life of Lithium (not sure which one) and 90% capacity at -40C. The lower end of the EV market will start to use NA in some volume IMO.

I think that right now battery technology is about where combustion engines were in the 1920s or 30s - it’s got a long way to go but it’s moving fast. That’s why I’d be reluctant to buy an EV now even if I could afford it, unless I was wealthy enough to be able to blow thousands of pounds a year on vehicle depreciation (which I probably could, but still wouldn’t, if I didn’t own a boat).

Anyway I’m really drifting off topic here so I’ll shut up.

There are EVs with hundreds of thousands of miles on the clock.....people have got their money’s worth out of their car.
Of course electric cars haven’t reached their pinnacle....and ice are almost there.....but the dawn of EV is already years ahead of ice. If someone in the 1920’s had said I won’t buy a car until it’s mature technology and the used market is guaranteed....well, they probably didn’t enjoy their ride in the hearse.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

That's one opinion, and I respect your right to hold an opinion. However, there are other opinions - including....
'If it ain't broke, don't fix it!'

It is broke though.

 

[MikeBz]

There are EVs with hundreds of thousands of miles on the clock.....people have got their money’s worth out of their car.
Of course electric cars haven’t reached their pinnacle....and ice are almost there.....but the dawn of EV is already years ahead of ice. If someone in the 1920’s had said I won’t buy a car until it’s mature technology and the used market is guaranteed....well, they probably didn’t enjoy their ride in the hearse.

True, but my point is that battery technology is going to advance at an incredible rate over the next 5 years or so - way outstripping ICE development rate in the 1920s (and 30s to now combined). If one can afford the obsolescence then fine, no reason not to jump in.

I’m absolutely not saying nobody should go EV now, just explaining why I wouldn’t unless I was far more wealthy.

 

[Bouba]

True, but my point is that battery technology is going to advance at an incredible rate over the next 5 years or so - way outstripping ICE development rate in the 1920s (and 30s to now combined). If one can afford the obsolescence then fine, no reason not to jump in.

I’m absolutely not saying nobody should go EV now, just explaining why I wouldn’t unless I was far more wealthy.

I think we get overwhelmed by new battery claims and new battery technology coming at us all the time....it’s easy to think that it’s all happening too fast....the reality is different...it’s been evolutionary not revolutionary....it takes vast resources to get an idea from the lab into full production.... and it’s far easier to tinker with an existing formula than to rebuild a factory and retrain a workforce. So the difference in batteries that are actually available in a car over the last handful of years isn’t so different that you can’t sell an used car.
Of course....that breakthrough will happen.....but when ?...during our short driving career ?....and could we afford it ?...will it be supercar price ?
So you could wait.....but whatever’s coming next is always over the horizon....or enjoy a car that’s a joy to drive

 

[geem]

I think we get overwhelmed by new battery claims and new battery technology coming at us all the time....it’s easy to think that it’s all happening too fast....the reality is different...it’s been evolutionary not revolutionary....it takes vast resources to get an idea from the lab into full production.... and it’s far easier to tinker with an existing formula than to rebuild a factory and retrain a workforce. So the difference in batteries that are actually available in a car over the last handful of years isn’t so different that you can’t sell an used car.
Of course....that breakthrough will happen.....but when ?...during our short driving career ?....and could we afford it ?...will it be supercar price ?
So you could wait.....but whatever’s coming next is always over the horizon....or enjoy a car that’s a joy to drive

Having worked for a company that was working on EV battery cooling in 2023, I can confirm that development is moving and an incredible pace. If you can keep cells cool whilst charging, the charge C rate is astonishing. You just need the amps available to fast charge. Where do we get those from when power for motive transport has traditionally been petrol and diesel

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Having worked for a company that was working on EV battery cooling in 2023, I can confirm that development is moving and an incredible pace. If you can keep cells cool whilst charging, the charge C rate is astonishing. You just need the amps available to fast charge. Where do we get those from when power for motive transport has traditionally been petrol and diesel

People are fixated with charge rates. The reality of EV ownership is that you spend very little time waiting while your car charges, just like on a boat. How often can you not cook without starting your generator or engine? The things that will help EV development are cost and weight. Sure, there’ll be some people for whom the highest charge rate is necessary, but for most of us, most of the time it’s as important as winning at top trumps. We recently did a 2000 mile road trip through France, and the lengths of our stops were governed by our ability to drink hot coffee, or eat, and use the facilities, not the speed of charging. Cheaper, lighter batteries will extend range in itself, and EVs are far too heavy atm. Mine is 2.2 tons, I wish it wasn’t.

 

[geem]

People are fixated with charge rates. The reality of EV ownership is that you spend very little time waiting while your car charges, just like on a boat. How often can you not cook without starting your generator or engine? The things that will help EV development are cost and weight. Sure, there’ll be some people for whom the highest charge rate is necessary, but for most of us, most of the time it’s as important as winning at top trumps. We recently did a 2000 mile road trip through France, and the lengths of our stops were governed by our ability to drink hot coffee, or eat, and use the facilities, not the speed of charging. Cheaper, lighter batteries will extend range in itself, and EVs are far too heavy atm. Mine is 2.2 tons, I wish it wasn’t.

You have already benefited from faster charge rates. That came when manufacturers improved cell cooling. Go back to the previous generation of EVs and you had a long wait. Battery tech is improving to the point where in 5 years time, charge rates will be the same as filling with petrol at the pump.
We just need the electrical infrastructure to support it.
You don't stop for a coffee everytime you put petrol in the car. It's a function of having an EV

 

[SeasickPete]

Totally different chemistry, as you well know.

The photo, and headline are at least accurate:

Matson Suspends Shipping EVs Citing Hazards of Lithium-ion Batteries

https://www.cnn.com/2025/06/24/us/morning-midas-ship-sinks-northern-pacific

"...after crew members abandoned ship when they couldn’t extinguish an onboard fire that left the carrier dead in the water"

"Among the cars were about 70 fully electric and about 680 hybrid vehicles. A large plume of smoke was initially seen at the ship’s stern coming from the deck loaded with electric vehicles, the Coast Guard and Zodiac Maritime said at the time."

Neither statement says the fire started on the car deck - the fact that the vessel was immobilised might just as easily suggest an engine room fire. I have no flesh in the game, but car carrier fires aren't a new thing since EV's came along, so concentrating on the presence of EV's smacks to me of having an agenda. Admittedly EV fires are proving harder to put out - a thing I don't really understand on vessels with huge engines and an unlimited supply of water - I guess insurance is cheaper than the counter measures.

In any case, a US carrier refusing to carry them will just encourage the chinese to build more car carriers, handing another industry to them on a plate

I would like to add to this that whilst yes, there is a unlimited amount of water around, there is also the issue of getting rid of the water you pump in for firefighting. This added water can lead to stability issues and in worst case even sink the vessel all together. Lastly, these sailors will try to save the vessel if it can be reasonably safely can be done. The captain will make the call to abandon the ship if he deems this safer for the crew, no ship or car is worth dying for, that's why the company has insurance.

 

[Bouba]

You have already benefited from faster charge rates. That came when manufacturers improved cell cooling. Go back to the previous generation of EVs and you had a long wait. Battery tech is improving to the point where in 5 years time, charge rates will be the same as filling with petrol at the pump.
We just need the electrical infrastructure to support it.
You don't stop for a coffee everytime you put petrol in the car. It's a function of having an EV

While it’s hard to drink coffee while putting petrol in your car....it’s a lot easier to smoke while putting electricity into your ev

 

[Chiara’s slave]

You have already benefited from faster charge rates. That came when manufacturers improved cell cooling. Go back to the previous generation of EVs and you had a long wait. Battery tech is improving to the point where in 5 years time, charge rates will be the same as filling with petrol at the pump.
We just need the electrical infrastructure to support it.
You don't stop for a coffee everytime you put petrol in the car. It's a function of having an EV

Our Audi diesel with a 550 mile range used to nag us at 2.5 hours to stop. It would relentlessly put a coffee cup icon on the dash. HGV drivers are legally obliged to take breaks. Time might well come when an interfering government imposes that on us all. Consider yourself lucky that ypu’re allowed to drive for ludicrously long stints. I don’t need the bog, but my wife does. She pushed the kids out, not me.

 

[geem]

Our Audi diesel with a 550 mile range used to nag us at 2.5 hours to stop. It would relentlessly put a coffee cup icon on the dash. HGV drivers are legally obliged to take breaks. Time might well come when an interfering government imposes that on us all. Consider yourself lucky that ypu’re allowed to drive for ludicrously long stints. I don’t need the bog, but my wife does. She pushed the kids out, not me.

My Peugeot diesel can do closer to 700 miles on a tank. I have never stopped for a coffee. If I am traveling long distance we stop for a meal.