Lithium fears

Sandy

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Rod Collins is the guru for lithium, he's been running a battery for about 14yrs with almost no noticeable degradation.
Thanks @Sea Change do you have any links for Rod Collins?

In a past life I did a lot of geeky testing on safety/mission critical systems and from a purely academic view would like to see what methodology he uses.

Would anybody like some sodium with their batteries?
 

lustyd

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has anybody run lithium for 15 years?
Why insist on 15 years? The degradation of lead within 5 years even when treated exceptionally well is well documented and understood. When not treated exceptionally well and looked after lead can fail or degrade within weeks. With price/usable capacity equalising (and with good AGMs lithium is now cheaper per usable Ah) lithium would only need to match the 5 years, for which there is extensive evidence even on these lowly forums and a cursory look outside these walls shows plenty of much older installs with little to no degradation.
And yes, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence from old salts who have not noticed the degradation in their lead banks even after 10 years...
 

Sea Change

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Thanks @Sea Change do you have any links for Rod Collins?
He has a website (Marine How To) but I found the following on the Facebook group 'lithium batteries on boats' (info on cycle life and degradation is at the end):

Happy 13th birthday to my LiFePo4 battery bank(5/10/2009)!

Back in 2007 the first lithium iron phosphate battery cells were just beginning to be manufactured and become commercially available. I dove in & began researching everything I could about lithium iron phosphate. Unfortunately back then there was scant white papers and scant research available. Anything that was available was behind a pay-wall at some university. I decided if I wanted to learn about lithium iron phosphate I needed to buy some cells & start experimenting. That was the only way I was going to learn. My first cells were small 100 Ah thundersky cells because they were relatively inexpensive and I didn't really care if I ruined them. being this early into a new technology I knew I was going to get some arrows in my back being a pioneer.This was all before cylindrical LiFepo4 cells even existed.it would've been much easier to destroy a few $10 cylindrical cells than cells the cost me $200 a piece.
I wound up destroying those initial cells pretty quickly experimenting with charge voltages, how deeply you could cycle them & such. I quickly found out that they didn't really care how deeply you discharged them other than going below about 3.00 VPC. I quickly learned that the cells did not need to charge to anywhere near 3.65 V to attain 100% state of charge. I also learned that they did not like to be absorbed for longer than is absolutely necessary. On those early cells these batteries were quickly degraded if you left them on absorb for too long a duration. After all this testing and experimenting I finally decided to order a set of 400 amp hour Winston cells for my own vesel. It may sound hard to believe, that back in 2009 we had a lot more availability in battery management systems. Genasun was actually building a BMS Clean Power Auto had one and there are a number of others mostly designed for EV use but that can be modified for marine use . Other than Genasun the only BMS that was specifically designed for marine application was made by a company called Clean Power Auto. Demetri the owner of that company is now is the engineer at Lithionics.for perhaps 2000 cycles I use this clean power auto BMS. At that point I switched to a REC BMS.
For my own banks charging I decided on 13.8V @ roughly a .4C charge rate with a 30 minute absorption and no float. The primary charge source for this bank has been the alternator and a Balmar MC 614 regulator. While we had plenty of solar solar it remained off most of the time. We used this bank with just 30 minutes of engine runtime a day. This is pretty easy in Maine with the light winds we have in the summer. Doing all the charging from the alternator worked out perfectly. If we needed to stay at anchor for more than three days I would simply flip on the solar array just to slow the discharge. The original charge regime I set up for this bank back in 2009 has worked amazingly well. Today the battery has over 2300 cycles on it with almost every cycle going to at least 80% depth of discharge purposely. As of the last discharge capacity test the bank could still deliver the full 400 amp hours of capacity (Technically a little bit over). So, for those who say LiFePo4 hasn't been around long enough to see how long it actually lasts, I'd say 13 years & 2300+ cycles is pretty good data so I am personally sold.😜
 

Neeves

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At least with this forum we can start exploring the real world data.

Hope springs eternal. :)

You are correct PBO is a marvellous medium - but it requires the participants who use the technology to be prepared to contribute - and be a bit more sympathetic to the questions. A bit more support and less sarcasm and criticism would go a long way.

Jonathan
 

Sea Change

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Why insist on 15 years? The degradation of lead within 5 years even when treated exceptionally well is well documented and understood. When not treated exceptionally well and looked after lead can fail or degrade within weeks. With price/usable capacity equalising (and with good AGMs lithium is now cheaper per usable Ah) lithium would only need to match the 5 years, for which there is extensive evidence even on these lowly forums and a cursory look outside these walls shows plenty of much older installs with little to no degradation.
And yes, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence from old salts who have not noticed the degradation in their lead banks even after 10 years...
I fitted brand new lead acids when we left the UK. On our Biscay crossing I ended up taking them down to 12.2v a few times running the autopilot in challenging conditions overnight (the boat wasn't yet properly set up, Hydrovane, lithium, and most of the solar were aboard but not yet installed).
They're now nearing end of life and I blame that crossing, it's the only time I ever gave them a hammering.
I used to run critical systems off the lead acid but three years in I'm finding they're almost done, and the LFP is far more resilient and reliable.
 

PaulRainbow

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The most noticeable thing about Lithium on boats is the insistence from those that have fitted them (with very odd exceptions) that they are the best thing since sliced bread and everyone, absolutely everyone, must fit them. No regard for the boat, how much equipment is fitted, how it is used etc etc

Worse than anchors !!
 

fredrussell

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I can’t help thinking there won’t be a choice between the two soon. Lithium is (or nearly is) as cheap as lead acid per kw/h right now. Assuming lithium soon becomes cheaper than lead acid why would they keep making lead acid batteries? I mean, lead is not cheap and the shipping costs must be massive compared to lithium batteries.

I’ve only converted my camper van to lithium so far, but when the lead acids die in the boat I won’t hesitate to switch over. Just the thought of carrying two 30kg batteries down the companionway steps is enough to make me change over.
 
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lustyd

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The most noticeable thing about Lithium on boats is the insistence from those that have fitted them (with very odd exceptions) that they are the best thing since sliced bread and everyone, absolutely everyone, must fit them. No regard for the boat, how much equipment is fitted, how it is used etc etc

Worse than anchors !!
The same seems to be true in reverse though, to be fair. Just like with anchors. AGM is the new CQR and the holdouts will be hoarding them in years to come!
 

Sandy

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Why insist on 15 years? The degradation of lead within 5 years even when treated exceptionally well is well documented and understood. When not treated exceptionally well and looked after lead can fail or degrade within weeks. With price/usable capacity equalising (and with good AGMs lithium is now cheaper per usable Ah) lithium would only need to match the 5 years, for which there is extensive evidence even on these lowly forums and a cursory look outside these walls shows plenty of much older installs with little to no degradation.
And yes, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence from old salts who have not noticed the degradation in their lead banks even after 10 years...
Who said I was insisting on 15 years? It was a figure that was 50% greater than the life of my last set of bog standard lead acid batteries. I am hoping to get 12 years out of my current AGMs, but we will see.

What is the scrap value of second hand lithium? I helped a friend drop off 200 kg of old batteries two weeks ago and he had a sizeable cash payment.
 

nestawayboats

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As per previous posts, if you're replacing batteries anyway because they're dead or dying it's quite easy. LifePO4 - for the same usable capacity - is already the same price as half decent lead acid batteries. At less than half the weight and volume.

Let's put some real numbers in there. Using randomly Googled examples, if you want a 100Ah usable battery bank:
- 2x Numax MV26MF lead acid batteries (nominal capacity 100Ah each, but you don't want to discharge any lower than 50%), total weight 42kg, total volume 0.022m3, total price £222
- 1x Ecoworthy 100Ah 12V LifePO4 battery total weight 9.5kg, total volume 0.09m3, price £240

So you can have either: near-enough cost equal (and a lot lighter and smaller); or, for twice the money, twice the usable capacity and still be lighter overall, with a bit of spare space...

Not to mention LifePO4's ability to absorb charge faster which is more efficient if you have to run your diesel engine to charge your batteries etc (or have a large solar array). And LifePO4's much greater cycle life, even if you were going to be really nice to your lead acid batteries.... which actually makes LifePO4 significantly cheaper over time.

It appears to be what my late father would have called a "no-brainer"!

Ian
Nestaway Boats Ltd
 

dancrane

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Some of the Torqueedo (or it may possibly the ePropulsion) outboards have a regen facility. It's been discussed on here; one concern raised was that you'd have to mount it pretty low down on the back of a yacht to actually work, which would then risk swamping the whole thing in following seas, or even just with your own stern wave.
I thought Torqeedo motors were 100% waterproof? I read on these pages that in an incident where the driven boat sank or became entirely immersed, its Torqeedo continued running long after, either hampering or helping recovery.
 

PaulRainbow

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I'm starting to really like the sound of Lithium. Cost for bottom end Lithium is the same as top end lead acid. You can consistently charge them to 100% and deplete them to 0%. All of the other kit you need to convert to Lithium, fuses, B"B or whatever seems to be free too, as no one mentions that when making a comparison. Excellent stuff (y)
 

Trident

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The most noticeable thing about Lithium on boats is the insistence from those that have fitted them (with very odd exceptions) that they are the best thing since sliced bread and everyone, absolutely everyone, must fit them. No regard for the boat, how much equipment is fitted, how it is used etc etc

Worse than anchors !!
I make most of my living fitting lithium and solar for cruising boats and probably have to tell more people not to fit it than to fit it. I finished a boat the other day and the neighbour in a weekend cruising mobo that never goes more than 30 miles and only anchors out for a night in nice weather asked if I could do LifePo for him too because he'd heard it was great. After ascertaining his use profile and the cost to make a good conversion I persuaded him that at most he needed a second leisure battery - LA - for £100, plus a bit of cable and 45 minutes of my time...
 

Sea Change

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I can’t help thinking there won’t be a choice between the two soon. Lithium is (or nearly is) as cheap as lead acid per kw/h right now. Assuming lithium soon becomes cheaper than lead acid why would they keep making lead acid batteries? I mean, lead is not cheap and the shipping costs must be massive compared to lithium batteries.

I’ve only converted my camper van to lithium so far, but when the lead acids die in the boat I won’t hesitate to switch over. Just the thought of carrying two 30kg batteries down the companionway steps is enough to make me change over.
Delivery is definitely a factor.

When I was setting up the boat for bluewater cruising, back in 2021, I budgeted for four Trojan 105 batteries. Total cost including delivery to my (Isle of Skye) address would have been £690.

I didn't buy them, I instead spent £407, delivered, building a LFP battery of greater useable capacity.

And prices for LFP have only fallen since then.
 

Sea Change

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I'm starting to really like the sound of Lithium. Cost for bottom end Lithium is the same as top end lead acid. You can consistently charge them to 100% and deplete them to 0%. All of the other kit you need to convert to Lithium, fuses, B"B or whatever seems to be free too, as no one mentions that when making a comparison. Excellent stuff (y)
For just the battery, lithium is already the cheaper option (unless you're insisting on buying Victron batteries etc). DIY lithium is already just as cheap as leisure batteries, per useable Ah. Drop-ins aren't that much more expensive, probably cheaper than AGM.

I know you're being tongue in cheek but the other kit that may have to be added or changed varies a lot depending on the boat. And I know you already know that.

Plenty of professional installations using a £10 ANL fuse, which surprised me, clearly people who do this for a living think that's good enough.
I didn't have a B2B charger at all for the first two years, eventually added a little 18A one just because I picked it up cheap.

But I agree with the general principle that LFP isn't the right answer for everyone. In the same way that some people are better off with a petrol car than a diesel one, it depends on how you're using it.

For starters, windlasses, and bow thrusters, I think lead acid is still a better choice. LFP doesn't really seem to make much sense on a mobo either, unless you spend long periods at anchor charging off solar, which is unusual. For people who sail occasional weekends and have to motor back to their berth in time for work on Monday morning, lead is probably fine.

But if you live aboard, at anchor, for weeks or months every year, it's really a no brainer.
 

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So this was taken at 9 am today in the UK with hazy cloud . 74 amps going in to the smart lithium batteries from solar (actually more but this is the net input whilst its powering our computers, fridge, freezer and so on aboard)

I have 700 ah of batteries and 2155 watts of solar panels - set up optimally with 4 MPPT and a combination of series and parallel

We have no gas and run a 3kw inverter, with a full size 240v fridge and a separate full size freezer, we have two hot water tanks with 800w elements and run all boat systems plus two Macs, Starlink, TV, PS4 etc. All lights are LED. We cook with an induction hob, a 2kw combo oven/grill/ microwave and an air fryer.

In UK / France in several years we have had to only use our DCDC chargers from the 125amp alternators two or three times for perhaps an hour . So in daily use from April to October over perhaps 1000 days with this set up we have needed only about 4kw extra power from the engines - and that is more preference than necessity because I have never let the LifePo go below 50% I should add my old water maker only took 20 amps DC for an hour a day - my new AC one is 65 amps but makes more than twice the amount of water which I'd love to say will mean we run it less but will probably mean we just sue more.

From November to April we run a shore power charger on days when its cloudy or in mid winter when its just too short a day in the UK but that includes most days a dehumidifier up to 24/7 which draws up to 5kw per day . Our electricity bill for winter has hit about 1200 kw (£400 at 33p / kw)

We could not at this stage run a UK winter without shore power (and thankfully will be in sunny climes in about 2 weeks) but by using the solar, lithium and inverter with the shore power just to top up the batteries via a charger we minimise shore power use.

Hopefully this helps the OP somewhat - I've not logged KW used and Kw generated etc because I have a life but over 5 years now I have lived aboard almost full time and whilst I am quite careful about usage - as in I will turn off hot water whilst I cook and then turn it back on again rather than draw 3-4kw all at once and that kind of thing - my only tinkering was to add an extra 500w of panels at one stage and 200 ah extra batteries from my initial estimate after a year. If I were staying at these latitudes I would add maybe 200ah more (total 900) and perhaps 2 more panels to try and be independent through winters but in the tropics I will never worry.

Ultimately in real terms now solar is direct cheap and lithium is not too bad either so put on as much as you can and you'll be fine through several days of cloud. Bear in mind even with which grey cloud (if not active heavy rain) we still add about 20 amps an hour and in white cloud up to 45 amps so there is always some more going in
 
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