Liquidated company

[bedouin]

I think some people are rather rushing to judgement without knowing the facts. We are just coming out of a long recession where many honest and well run companies have gone to the wall. This company obviously has a long trading history so isn't a typical example of the unscrupulous directors who liquidate a company every year or two to dodge creditors.

It is unlikely that the liquidation was purely to avoid the court case - in fact it cannot have been. An unscrupulous company would have let you go to court, rack up more legal costs, pay to send in the bailiffs and then gone into liquidation.

 

[David2452]

I would have thought they would have had Professional Indemnity & Defective Workmanship insurance, so would be covered anyway so the liquidation may well have nothing to do with it. Worth checking anybody that does work for you has the correct insurances.

 

[volvopaul]

I think some people are rather rushing to judgement without knowing the facts. We are just coming out of a long recession where many honest and well run companies have gone to the wall. This company obviously has a long trading history so isn't a typical example of the unscrupulous directors who liquidate a company every year or two to dodge creditors.

It is unlikely that the liquidation was purely to avoid the court case - in fact it cannot have been. An unscrupulous company would have let you go to court, rack up more legal costs, pay to send in the bailiffs and then gone into liquidation.

I can't say too much but the company purely went liquid because of the claim against them, there were very little creditors listed.

 

[volvopaul]

I would have thought they would have had Professional Indemnity & Defective Workmanship insurance, so would be covered anyway so the liquidation may well have nothing to do with it. Worth checking anybody that does work for you has the correct insurances.

No insurance as I'm aware, they used outside contractors for some of the work.

I guess I have an answer on this one, thanks everyone for the input.

 

[rbcoomer]

No insurance as I'm aware, they used outside contractors for some of the work.

I guess I have an answer on this one, thanks everyone for the input.

Hard as it is, there's no such thing as fair play in this process - the big creditors like HMG, banks and 'advisors' seem to get paid well before any remaining scraps/crumbs are shared amongst suppliers and customers. Wrong, but standard process. I worked for accountants/official receivers for approx 3 years in the early 90's managing a business pending a sale and they seemed to me to best represent the former owners and banks (or in my case the brewery who were the major creditor). During this time I was also involved in the office and the setting up/financial management of an unrelated new venture. I witnessed a number of 'phoenix' operations during this time and also companies wound up/asset stripped for peanuts when they could have been sold as a going concern. Very frustrating for suppliers in particular when a company restarts with the same faces day-to-day and a 'shadow' director allegedly overseeing.

I don't suppose there's any mileage in the owner's own insurance? There's surely a difference between neglecting maintenance and commissioning expertise to resolve an issue that later transpires to be negligent? How is the customer supposed to know that the advice/repairs are bad? After all, he's not the expert in such things or he'd be doing it himself! Perhaps one for JFM's insurance wisdom?

 

[oldgit]

"It is unlikely that the liquidation was purely to avoid the court case

It is quite possible in some cases that the owner of a particular company has been made very aware that he would in all probability lose a case if it actually came to court.
Surely therefore,if he was certain that he was in the right and was also prepared to stand by his workmanship and reputation, the court case would have found in his favour and awarded costs accordingly.
The fact he was not prepared to stand by his claim in court and avoided doing so in such a underhand way,speaks volumes.
The company concerned may have been given ample opportunities over many years to come to some sort of amical agreement,but appeared to prolong the dispute, presumably in the hope the the customer would give up.

 

[bedouin]

It is quite possible in some cases that the owner of a particular company has been made very aware that he would in all probability lose a case if it actually came to court.
Surely therefore,if he was certain that he was in the right and was also prepared to stand by his workmanship and reputation, the court case would have found in his favour and awarded costs accordingly.
The fact he was not prepared to stand by his claim in court and avoided doing so in such a underhand way,speaks volumes.
The company concerned may have been given ample opportunities over many years to come to some sort of amical agreement,but appeared to prolong the dispute, presumably in the hope the the customer would give up.

Legally of course if the owner were aware that he was going to lose a large court case, that might make the company insolvent and so he is required in law to go into liquidation. (Not that I am saying that is what happened here)

In fact even if he thought he was in the right the cost of defending the action could be enough to make the company insolvent.

 

[Seahope]

It's in situations like theses that I'm amazed the premises of the scumbag companies don't go up in flames.

Sorry Cardo, but this must be the worse 'suggestion' I have seen posted on this Forum. Not only would a criminal record be on likely outcome but the company would be able to claim on their insurance policy.

 

[Cardo]

Sorry Cardo, but this must be the worse 'suggestion' I have seen posted on this Forum. Not only would a criminal record be on likely outcome but the company would be able to claim on their insurance policy.

Obviously not a suggestion. More an observation. Arsons are a pain to investigate and very rarely lead to anyone being arrested, let alone a conviction. If businesses shaft people in quite the way as is being suggested, I'm surprised they don't take the law into their own hands more often. Yes, insurance would cover it, but it's more about the inconvenience and loss of business caused.

 

[westernman]

I would have thought they would have had Professional Indemnity & Defective Workmanship insurance, so would be covered anyway so the liquidation may well have nothing to do with it. Worth checking anybody that does work for you has the correct insurances.

This is the only avenue worth following.

Life is too short to try and prove fraud by the directors (which is a tall order) and does not necessarily help get you reimbursed or your engine fixed.

Is the liquidation because they are insolvent or because they just want to stop doing business and don't want to sell it as a going concern?

It is perfectly legal to wind up a company because the directors feel like it. However, any claim which is already being pursued by legal means remains enforceable against the assets of the wound up company. The liquidator has to pay out those claims in so far as the assets permit that to be done.

 

[rbcoomer]

This is the only avenue worth following.

Life is too short to try and prove fraud by the directors (which is a tall order) and does not necessarily help get you reimbursed or your engine fixed.

Is the liquidation because they are insolvent or because they just want to stop doing business and don't want to sell it as a going concern?

It is perfectly legal to wind up a company because the directors feel like it. However, any claim which is already being pursued by legal means remains enforceable against the assets of the wound up company. The liquidator has to pay out those claims in so far as the assets permit that to be done.

I'd agree with first two paragraphs. Regarding the third, I understood that they had already started a new business in the same locations doing the same thing? This is where I feel the system is wrong. It's not uncommon (and indeed makes a lot of sense) for the buildings etc to have been sold/transferred to a pension fund/trust or similar for the directors/family to protect from just such events. Much of the plant and equipment (sometimes tooling too) is often older and when installed/heavy etc not viable to move/sell and thus gets valued at next to nothing (i.e. too costly/difficult for the liquidator to sell). However, Newco buys this for a £1 when perhaps to replace or buy new might be thousands of tens of thousands. I recall suggesting that a certain item of plant would probably raise a grand in scrap metal as it was too specialist to sell on - the idea was laughed at but mysteriously was in a phoenix companies books a few years later valued at £20K! It's also not unknown for former directors/family etc to make terms of a new site lease etc prohibitive for a new owner and thus effectively prevent a sale as a going concern but this can obviously be renegotiated for themselves/other family members etc... My point is, it's very easy for the liquidator to prove he couldn't achieve a higher value and thus sell the assets back to former owners for next to nothing. Not saying this is the case here, but it does happen.

I suspect it may be too late for the last paragraph. Claims have to be submitted within a certain time frame IIRC and the process can be done and dusted fairly quickly.

If it's going to cost more to pursue than they're likely to get back then it's not worth the time and hassle - although it's really annoying to see them carry on like nothing has happened! The only exception I can see to that is if it's clear that there were assets transferred under dubious circumstances (like above) and perhaps there are other claimants in a similar position - whereby costs to pursue could be shared (like a class action). The latter would improve the prospects of a conviction as it would show a pattern of intent to defraud rather than simple a job that's gone wrong, error etc.

From what I know, it's probably cheaper and less stressful to walk away.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I'm all for a visit in the middle of the night, you wont get your dosh back but the scum bags will get one hell of a pasting.

Agree with that. I've been running my own business for 25yrs and I've lost money to companies going under on several occasions. On a number of occasions I've arranged for debt collectors to knock on the doors of the homes of the directors concerned in the evening. There's nothing a dishonest director dislikes more that having his dishonesty shown up in front of his friends and family. Of course I'm not talking about threatening them and I've never got any money back this way but there is a certain satisfaction in embarassing them

 

[Cardo]

Agree with that. I've been running my own business for 25yrs and I've lost money to companies going under on several occasions. On a number of occasions I've arranged for debt collectors to knock on the doors of the homes of the directors concerned in the evening. There's nothing a dishonest director dislikes more that having his dishonesty shown up in front of his friends and family. Of course I'm not talking about threatening them and I've never got any money back this way but there is a certain satisfaction in embarassing them

There's an agency in Spain that specialise in this exact practice. They'll visit debtors at home, very visibly, and will leave their card on the door or letterbox for everyone to see.
As you say, they probably won't recover any money, but it's very embarrassing for the person in question, who probably makes a show of being successful amongst their family/neighbours.

 

[jfm]

Agree with that. I've been running my own business for 25yrs and I've lost money to companies going under on several occasions. On a number of occasions I've arranged for debt collectors to knock on the doors of the homes of the directors concerned in the evening. There's nothing a dishonest director dislikes more that having his dishonesty shown up in front of his friends and family. Of course I'm not talking about threatening them and I've never got any money back this way but there is a certain satisfaction in embarassing them

I share your displeasure Mike at some of these prepacks

OceanLED underwater lighting have just done it. The current OceanLED company was incorporated 6 March 2014, phoenixed out of the old one which, er, wasn't trading strongly. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a number of creditors lost out - why else would they have done it? The stated reason "to facilitate buyout" is of course just spin because you don't need to go into insolvency proceedings to do a buyout

That they still claim “Customers can rest assured that their OceanLED products are the best and brightest" (Derek Duffill, CEO) shows they are capable of twisting things. Master wordsmiths, which alas isn't most of the public, will notice that sentence isn't actually a lie and does not actually claim OceanLED lights are the brightest.

It merely says "Customers can rest assured..." which of course they can - it is entirely a customer's choice whether to rest assured about anything, or indeed whether to rest unassured, or to rest at all as distinct from going to work. The wording is very carefully crafted, but not very well done (rather like their lights, imho) because the wordsmithing is a bit too obvious

www.lumishore.com of course make the underwater yacht lights with the highest fixture lumen output of all, and the company is run by decent honest people

http://www.oceanled.com/news.php
http://www.superyachtbusiness.net/news/oceanled-placed-into-administration/

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

www.lumishore.com of course make the underwater yacht lights with the highest fixture lumen output of all, and the company is run by decent honest people

Crikey, that post is timely. I'm at SL tomorrow for the final check on the F630 and I'd forgotten all about u/w lights. Just added to the to-do list

 

[jfm]

I'd forgotten all about u/w lights.

Sheesh!
Have a nice trip

www.lumishore.com

 

[longjohnsilver]

Yes I'm fitting mine this coming week!

 

[EME]

@Deleted User -- Mike, got your e-mail , back to you in a few minutes.
@LJS --- Good Man ..!
@JFM --- I'm surprised that it took so long for the public information that Oceanled were in administration to get on here, when I first saw this thread title I thought that was the subject! We are still learning about the fall-out but we have to focus on what we do i.e. Lumishore (no wordsmithing) do produce the best & brightest underwater lights bar none!! . I have to be impressed by that Press Release though …. perhaps the author is looking for a job?

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

@Deleted User -- Mike, got your e-mail , back to you in a few minutes.
@LJS --- Good Man ..!
@JFM --- I'm surprised that it took so long for the public information that Oceanled were in administration to get on here, when I first saw this thread title I thought that was the subject! We are still learning about the fall-out but we have to focus on what we do i.e. Lumishore (no wordsmithing) do produce the best & brightest underwater lights bar none!! . I have to be impressed by that Press Release though …. perhaps the author is looking for a job?

... and EME, I owe you a thank you - MJ was here as arranged on Monday, boat was launched this morning, and lights will be on tonight! Thanks again. Rosé on me next time we coincide.

 

[volvopaul]

Amazing how a topic can drift .