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toad_oftoadhall said:
You didn't say your sailing in F10s was accidental. So, anyway, you think planning to go out a ten should be a criminal offence wheras accidently sailing in a F10 should be legal. You won't be surprised to hear I don't agree. :-)
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I thought that my saying there's a difference between being caught out in it and setting out into it would have made my position clear.

Having been there more than once, only one occasion was enjoyable in any way. Strong crew, good boat, flat seas for the wind and an ultra fast and exciting downwind sleigh ride.

The other couple of occasions, given the option, I'd rather have been elsewhere. Less a case of fear and more a case of the minutes seeming like hours in the wait for abatement. Always at night too.

I don't think sailing in a F10 should be illegal, and have never said so, but the idea of taking out a relatively novice and unknown paying crew on a night passage with limited and unreliable alternative options and a force 10 in the forecast is one that I wouldn't entertain for a moment. For that matter, I wouldn't wilfully go out into it with the strong crew and good boat I mentioned previously just for the sake of it. That time it was fun, but it's a fine line.

To me it's not a matter of legality. It's a matter of judgement, and my judgement says don't put the boat, crew and any potential rescuers at unnecessary risk. It's very simple to do; just stay put. If I had some mental lapse and did set out as CS did, then it all went boss-eyed, I'd expect some trouble to be headed my way. I'd consider myself to have been negligent.
 
bitbaltic said:
Fair point

But he is a persistent troll so it's worth getting to the bottom of it.
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No its not. Ignore him completely.

If there is anything to "get to the bottom of" it will be in court or in any official published report. The case is ongoing and until it is concluded everything here is speculation - and Toad is the greatest speculator of them all.
 
Tranona said:
No its not. Ignore him completely.

If there is anything to "get to the bottom of" it will be in court or in any official published report. The case is ongoing and until it is concluded everything here is speculation - and Toad is the greatest speculator of them all.
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Definitely agreed

I was more after getting to the bottom of Toad, than the circumstances of his argument. Although I know this has been tried, tiresomely, before. I really would like to know how often he blithely sets out into a storm on the principle of doing whatever he likes, just because he can, though. Genuinely.
 
bitbaltic said:
I don't think putting to sea with a private boat in a F10 should be a criminal offence at all.

I do think putting to sea in a F10 with a paying crew (of any sort) is daft.
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As Jimi said, it is really a matter of looking at the bigger picture. The passage plan for this case was particularly poor, not just because of the weather, but other factors such as the lack of hardened experienced crew, and a lack of a plan B. Whether the boat was the right one for such conditions I do not know, perhaps others could speculate. If they had gone out in sheltered water in a F10 with plenty of good boltholes, or perhaps spent a few days in the Atlantic with sea room, the plan may have been more reasonable.

One of the first Steel Challenge races was started in similarly atrocious weather, but these were in very substantial boats with a practised crew, and would have to face even worse weather later on, so it would have been hard to criticise them for setting sail.
 
bitbaltic said:
I don't think putting to sea with a private boat in a F10 should be a criminal offence at all.
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Nor me.

bitbaltic said:
I do think putting to sea in a F10 with a paying crew (of any sort) is daft.
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Big leap from "daft" to "criminal offence".

bitbaltic said:
How often have you done either, can I ask?
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I don't see the relevance of how much sailing I've done in F10s. I've never murdered anyone but I think that should be illegal. I've never tried to climb Everest with no oxygen but I think that should be legal.

However since you ask, I've never been accidently out in insanely big winds. Intentionally, I have been out in a Ten in very sheltered water in daylight which isn't really comparable what we're talking about here. Gales (winter and summer) I've done a lot of. Personally I happen to think that sailing in gales is some of the most interesting sailing you can do in a big boat[1] and make no appology for loving it and doing as much as I can. I don't blame people for paying to do winter heavy weather sailing for one second.

Anyway, apparently I'm trolling so I'll duck out, I don't want to spoil the thread for anyone.

[1] By which I mean "Yacht as opposed to a dinghy, windsurfer or kite surfer" because you don't need a gale and decent surfing waves to make 'small boats' entertaining in the same way that you do with a yacht.
 
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toad_oftoadhall said:
Nor me.



Big leap from "daft" to "criminal offence".



I don't see the relevance of how much sailing I've done in F10s. I've never murdered anyone but I think that should be illegal. I've never tried to climb Everest with no oxygen but I think that should be legal.

However since you ask, I've never been accidently out in insanely big winds. I have been out in a Ten in very sheltered water in daylight which isn't really comparable what we're talking about here. Gales (winter and summer) I've done a lot of. Personally I happen to think that sailing in gales is some of the most interesting sailing you can do in a big boat and make no appology for loving it and doing as much as I can. I don't blame people for paying to do winter heavy weather sailing for one second.

Anyway, apparently I'm trolling so I'll duck out, I don't want to spoil the thread for anyone.
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What do you classify as "a big boat"?
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
Anyway, apparently I'm trolling so I'll duck out, I don't want to spoil the thread for anyone.
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Glad you have finally recognised what many have known for a long time. It seems so engrained in your nature that you are unable to accept that is what you do - until now!
 
That also explains a lot. A F10 in open water is a long way away from a mere gale. It's not a case of it being 'just a couple of forces higher' as many would assume.
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
I don't see the relevance of how much sailing I've done in F10s.
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Oh, but *I* do. And I was asking the question, so humour me.

However since you ask, I've never been accidently out in insanely big winds.......Gales (winter and summer) I've done a lot of.
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Now now. That's just not cricket. It's not fair to leave me hanging in this way. I was asking about storms you've intentionally set out into, not gales you accidentally encountered, as that is what you were discussing with Simon when I rudely interrupted (apologies). And your experience of such storms provides context to your assertions about the wisdom of HL sailing in one. Won't you enlighten me with numbers? How often have you set sail with a F10 in the forecast?
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
Which is where I find your attitude incomprehensible. You want to lock people up for going out in a F10 which is far safer than almost any Motorsport you can name.
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MY attitude is incomprehensible-where in my post have I said I want anyone locked up? For your information Motorsport is statisticaly safer than riding or driving on the road. Safety equipment to a recognised standard must be used, macinery is scrutinised thoroughly and paramedics and ambulances are seconds away from incidents. Unlike sailing where it is possible to purchase a vessel with no experience of sailing or boating and just go for it. Also, HL and CS are not being prosecuted for going out in a force 10. The case against them is clear-the Company and its Skipper made poor judgements in regard to the safety and wellbeing of paying punters. Specific H&S regulations apply to commercial enterprises. I want, as I made clear, a rigorous inspection of what has been a sad and hazardous passage WHICH MOST WHO POST ON HERE WOULD HAVE AVOIDED. Not you-you think its all right. I have only ten years experience of sailing, all on yachts of 27 to 40 feet. With a forecast like they had I would have stayed put. To take a weak crew of paying punters out was asking for trouble, and that is what they have.
 
bitbaltic said:
Definitely agreed

I was more after getting to the bottom of Toad, than the circumstances of his argument. Although I know this has been tried, tiresomely, before. I really would like to know how often he blithely sets out into a storm on the principle of doing whatever he likes, just because he can, though. Genuinely.
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My estimate of Toad , based purely on his offerings here, is that he is an A1 wind up merchant who has nothing origional to say so he almost always takes an illogical adverse position to the debates or posts that offer him that oppertunity. A previous poster was right-we should not encourage him.
 
rotrax said:
My estimate of Toad , based purely on his offerings here, is that he is an A1 wind up merchant who has nothing origional to say so he almost always takes an illogical adverse position to the debates or posts that offer him that oppertunity. A previous poster was right-we should not encourage him.
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Oh agreed

He has a marvellously inverted logic (one could not call it a 'grasp').

Perhaps I am being naiive (trolls usually come back for more). But it is entertaining. Although I have not slogged through as much of it as everybody else.
 
People keep mentioning the weak crew, yet there were several day skippers on board, plus others with yacht masters. I wonder just how they described their experience and ability to the company before signing up for the trip and before setting off. One thing is for sure, the skipper would not have withheld the forecast from the crew. In fact from my experience with sailing schools it would have been one of the crew that recorded it. I suspect that any weakness in the crew only became really apparent after the chap was injured and the steering failed. Seasickness amongst school crews is almost to be expected and if you made a point of returning to port every time it happened you'd soon find yourself not getting very far.
 
Woodlouse said:
People keep mentioning the weak crew, ........Seasickness amongst school crews is almost to be expected
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So it could have been expected that the crew would have been seasick? And an experienced YM skipper should know this?

there were several day skippers on board, plus others with yacht masters. I wonder just how they described their experience and ability to the company
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Are you suggesting they exaggerated their experience and a YM skipper would take that on faith?

One thing is for sure, the skipper would not have withheld the forecast from the crew.
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Agreed. But were they as individuals and as a group competent to make a decision on it?
 
bitbaltic said:
So it could have been expected that the crew would have been seasick? And an experienced YM skipper should know this?
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I am not an experienced YM but would hazard a guess that if I took any group of people sailing who had not been out in a F5 or more, that a F10 would render 50% seasick and unable to contribute.

Just from a personal observation when sailing in heavy weather.
 
as a YM cruising instructor, novice crew limit for departure is 20 Knots, but we keep sailing if we encounter up to 25. Comp crew and Day skipper departures up to 25 kn (mainly because of the opportunities for a sensible teaching experience would be limited in stronger winds). Coastal and YM instruction and any more advanced milebuilding depends on skipper evaluation of crew capability, but would not set out over F8 in any circumstances. If weather is worsening then you are looking for trouble. if weather is moderating, why not wait. Going out with a F10 forecast in the passage plan....never
 
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