Liquid Vortex trial starts

[Nico]

People keep mentioning the weak crew, yet there were several day skippers on board, plus others with yacht masters. I wonder just how they described their experience and ability to the company before signing up for the trip and before setting off. One thing is for sure, the skipper would not have withheld the forecast from the crew. In fact from my experience with sailing schools it would have been one of the crew that recorded it. I suspect that any weakness in the crew only became really apparent after the chap was injured and the steering failed. Seasickness amongst school crews is almost to be expected and if you made a point of returning to port every time it happened you'd soon find yourself not getting very far.

+1

One of the newspaper reports said that the crew were at best only qualified to sail in familiar waters in daylight: confusing "sail" and "skipper". I'd have thought at worst some of the crew were under peer pressure to go, against their judgement. I've known of people who will deliberately take boats out in very windy weather but they don't go far from a bolt hole. It's good to get the experience.

 

[WestWittering]

AIUI, there were other boats heading for the show, who departed earlier the same day & were tucked up in Eastbourne in the pm. They set out with a forecast of F10 later and PLANNED to stop at Eastbourne & wait it out. Which they did.

Di

 

[fireball]

+1

One of the newspaper reports said that the crew were at best only qualified to sail in familiar waters in daylight: confusing "sail" and "skipper".

Nitpicking I know ... but Day Skipper is NOT a qualification - it is a certification ... I know - I've got one ...

I'd have thought at worst some of the crew were under peer pressure to go, against their judgement. I've known of people who will deliberately take boats out in very windy weather but they don't go far from a bolt hole. It's good to get the experience.

My first channel crossing was with a YM (I think he was at the time) on his boat - with several others - in a NE F6 ... I held a DS certificate, can't remember if I'd done the CS/YM theory at that stage ... anyway .. despite having loads of experience sailing in all weathers, it was all local and mostly on small boats. Whilst ultimately I had the choice on whether to go or not I put my trust in the Skipper to decide if he and the boat would fair ok.
Without experience of my own I had to do that ...
Of course, we were absolutely fine (if you call being seasick 6 times fine! But I muddled through!) - the skipper called it as it was.
That is the role of a skipper ... and how the inexperienced usually gain experience ...
After last winters efforts - would you trust CS's call as a skipper? I wouldn't - I may decide to agree with his call, but I wouldn't trust it without checking the facts for myself now.
We all make mistakes - minor errors allow us to gain more experience - but is setting off with a F10 in the forecast a minor error? Possibly not if he had experienced delivery or racing crew onboard - each one capable of handling the vessel without guidance - but with reasonably inexperienced paying crew - I think that's a fairly major error and unfortunately his lack of foresight bit him hard ...

 

[Nico]

Nitpicking I know ... but Day Skipper is NOT a qualification - it is a certification ... I know - I've got one ...

Nitpicking I know, but a qualification is something that qualifies you, not a particular type of piece of paper. I'm qualified to tell you this because I know about these things although I don't hold a "qualification" or even a certificate.

Anyway I wouldn't have set foot on Liquid Lunch myself. The skipper was obviously gung-ho.

 

[A1Sailor]

Which brings us back to my point about CS, on behalf of HL, taking them to sea with that forecast. It is very easy to be wise after the event, but as an experienced cruising yachtie (Coastal Skipper since 1987) I hope I would have had the sense to disembark - if I knew the forecast.

+1.
I would be interested to know what the Skipper told the passengers (sorry - crew) before they set sail. They were briefed, and I think did a MOB drill. Was the possibility of Force 10/11 in the dark mentioned?

 

[fireball]

Nitpicking I know, but a qualification is something that qualifies you, not a particular type of piece of paper. I'm qualified to tell you this because I know about these things although I don't hold a "qualification" or even a certificate.

Most of us on here are certifiable ... anyone qualified to ratify that statement?!

Anyway I wouldn't have set foot on Liquid Lunch myself. The skipper was obviously gung-ho.

Serious answer - it depends ...

I've "met" the skipper before when he was teaching berthing techniques in Yarmouth - with a line over the offside that was IMHO a danger for the prop ... when I pointed it out (in private) he brushed off the danger as a non-issue ... I didn't warm to him then ... and if he'd turned up to be my Skipper I would've probably have walked away - whatever the forecast! - had I not then one of us would've been over the side during the passage - given his previous career I guess it would be me!

But - if I didn't know the skipper then it would depend on what he said was the plan ... and whether or not I felt I could trust him to keep us all safe - or if I felt the crew could overrule him ... (yup mutiny!). Personally I would be very jittery with a F10 in the forecast and wouldn't want to go ... but may have been persuaded if told we would put into port before the wind came ...

 

[johndove]

Freak wave or wash!

Extract from the MAIB at the time.

"At 05:00 - 05:30, the skipper sent a Pan Pan message to Dover Coastguard as a safety precaution so that they were aware of his location and intentions. Dover Coastguard called the RNLI Lifeboat to escort the yacht into Dover.

"Shortly after the Lifeboat met Liquid Vortex she was hit by a large wave from astern. This caused the helmsman to fall against the wheel and subsequently bend the wheel which prevented further steering. The helmsman went below suffering an injured jaw and damaged ribs…......

Did hear at the time the freak wave was caused by the wash of the lifeboat making a cross wave on the existing waves! Would explain why only one wave, why just as lifeboat arrived and in the RNLI video’s show the wave heights are not that big!

 

[Tomahawk]

Extract from the MAIB at the time.…......

Did hear at the time the freak wave was caused by the wash of the lifeboat making a cross wave on the existing waves! Would explain why only one wave, why just as lifeboat arrived and in the RNLI video’s show the wave heights are not that big!

That is a very interesting point. If the wash from the Lifeboat caused the big wave that lead to the steering being damaged... it would alter the whole situation. The Lifeboat would seem to have played some part in making the situation worse and would thereby seem to carry responsibility for some of the difficulty.. The problem being, is there any evidence to support the notion that the wash caused the helmsman to fall onto the wheel?

 

[Searush]

That is a very interesting point. If the wash from the Lifeboat caused the big wave that lead to the steering being damaged... it would alter the whole situation. The Lifeboat would seem to have played some part in making the situation worse and would thereby seem to carry responsibility for some of the difficulty.. The problem being, is there any evidence to support the notion that the wash caused the helmsman to fall onto the wheel?

Is it even remotely likley? Wash travels for miles in shletered water - but would it even be noticed in a storm? And what sort of speed would teh LB have to be travelling at to create a wash that poops a decent sized yacht? Now how likely is it that it could do that sort of speed in a storm?

Just sounds an utterly stupid idea to me. Anyone else like to comment?

 

[A1Sailor]

Is it even remotely likley? Wash travels for miles in shletered water - but would it even be noticed in a storm? And what sort of speed would teh LB have to be travelling at to create a wash that poops a decent sized yacht? Now how likely is it that it could do that sort of speed in a storm?

Just sounds an utterly stupid idea to me. Anyone else like to comment?

Maybe it is part of the defence?

 

[mainsail1]

Does anyone know why the trial seems to have disappeared from the press AND from the Court in Southampton?

 

[Tomahawk]

As I said, is there any evidence, from the crew? Or from the LB video?

A big wave hitting the casualty is the sort of thing they would be likely to see and film if they were filming the whole event from first contact.

 

[awol]

Where was DAKA that day?

 

[skyflyer]

We all make mistakes - minor errors allow us to gain more experience

reminds me of this

It is said that at the same time you qualify, you get two buckets: one empty, one full. The empty bucket is your (lack of) Experience, the full bucket is Luck. The trick is to fill the bucket of Experience before the bucket of Luck runs out!

 

[johndove]

the wave

Is it even remotely likely? Wash travels for miles in shletered water - but would it even be noticed in a storm? And what sort of speed would teh LB have to be travelling at to create a wash that poops a decent sized yacht? Now how likely is it that it could do that sort of speed in a storm?

Just sounds an utterly stupid idea to me. Anyone else like to comment?

We all seen a life boat at full speed! Displacement hull at 20 plus knots

can't you imagine one approaching at full speed, the cross wash on top of the waves!

They have put green water on my decks on the Solent before in calm conditions!

Not criticizing the RNLI but maybe on this shout a misjudgment by the coxswain compounded the situation, with the urgency of the situation. The mayday situation developed when the lifeboat arrived and not before and the helmsman was injured by the wave.
Maybe this was why C.S was not pleased that the lifeboat was sent?
Interesting there has been no press reporting since the defense started presenting on Friday last week!

 

[maxi77]

I am not an experienced YM but would hazard a guess that if I took any group of people sailing who had not been out in a F5 or more, that a F10 would render 50% seasick and unable to contribute.

Just from a personal observation when sailing in heavy weather.

I would take it a stage further if you take a bunch of people who do not go to sea very often out in anything above a force 4 you are likely to have a high percentage suffering from various levels of seasickness. Off course considering the apparent macho atmosphere for this trip one suspects that very few took any medication to reduce the inoact of mal de mer.

 

[Searush]

We all seen a life boat at full speed! Displacement hull at 20 plus knots

can't you imagine one approaching at full speed, the cross wash on top of the waves!

They have put green water on my decks on the Solent before in calm conditions!

Not criticizing the RNLI but maybe on this shout a misjudgment by the coxswain compounded the situation, with the urgency of the situation. The mayday situation developed when the lifeboat arrived and not before and the helmsman was injured by the wave.
Maybe this was why C.S was not pleased that the lifeboat was sent?
Interesting there has been no press reporting since the defense started presenting on Friday last week!

That was my whole point, I cannot imagine a "cross wash" (as you put it) doing anything to increase storm force seas. Never mind pooping a large modern sailing boat. In my experience wash soon decays in rough water. Still less can I see an RNLI skipper doing 20knots across the stern of a casualty in those conditions.

Standing by means standing by, that is holding station with the casualty (which is maybe doing 8knts) it doesn't mean doing high speed passes around the casualty & risking collision, does it?

Can we please try to apply a modicum of sanity to the conjecture on these threads.

 

[A1Sailor]

That was my whole point, I cannot imagine a "cross wash" (as you put it) doing anything to increase storm force seas. Never mind pooping a large modern sailing boat. In my experience wash soon decays in rough water. Still less can I see an RNLI skipper doing 20knots across the stern of a casualty in those conditions.

Standing by means standing by, that is holding station with the casualty (which is maybe doing 8knts) it doesn't mean doing high speed passes around the casualty & risking collision, does it?

I agree with you Searush. Would a Jury of non-seafaring folk? Or would it introduce an element of doubt?
Remember - it was the freak wave which dunnit.

 

[Pye_End]

That was my whole point, I cannot imagine a "cross wash" (as you put it) doing anything to increase storm force seas. Never mind pooping a large modern sailing boat. In my experience wash soon decays in rough water. Still less can I see an RNLI skipper doing 20knots across the stern of a casualty in those conditions.

Standing by means standing by, that is holding station with the casualty (which is maybe doing 8knts) it doesn't mean doing high speed passes around the casualty & risking collision, does it?

Can we please try to apply a modicum of sanity to the conjecture on these threads.

Waves around the point at dungeness can get fairly big even in fresh conditions, so a breaking wave in rough weather pooping a yacht is not unreasonable. I cannot imagine lifeboat waves contributing anything other than 'white noise' by comparrison.

I wonder how much video the RNLI take, other than that which has turned up on Youtube.

 

[A1Sailor]

I wonder how much video the RNLI take, other than that which has turned up on Youtube.

I would imagine RNLI video everything. The bits that end up in the public domain are in newscasts or issued by them.