Lines led to cockpit. What's the downside?

[Simon F]

Hello All,

I've been looking for my second boat having outgrown my little daysailor. I'm surprised to find that quite a high proportion of the boats I've considered do not have the lines led back to the cockpit. My little Pandora had this feature and I don't really see the downside. Why wouldn't you want to be able to manage the sails from the cockpit, even if you aren't single handed?

So, I have two questions

1 - is there something I'm missing? A benefit to going to the mast that becomes apparent in a bigger vessel and wasn't clear to me in my 23footer?

2 - Can all boats be modified to enable this? I see that virtually no Westerly Centaurs have coachroof winches for the reefing lines etc. (I've seen one on the Westerly owners website) There are a couple of boats I've seen which would be suitable except for this issue, and I'm up for installing deck organisers etc, but maybe it isn't always possible to do?

Thanks for your thoughts,

Simon.

 

[Eygthene]

Our Jeanneau Sunlight 30 has all lines led back to the cockpit, with two winches on the coachroof and a row of clutches either side. We have no problems using these controls, but sometimes need to go on the coachroof to flake down the mainsail, depending on how it drops.

 

[Habebty]

No real downside, as long as the increased friction is managed by careful block and clutch position/maintenance.

 

[Moodysailor]

The downside is extra friction in the system with the extra turns, but with modern systems this is largely mitigated. Our last boat has very old kit on it, so it was a physical job even from the mast, running lines back to the cockpit would have made raising, lowering or reefing almost impossible.

One some boats it isn't practical due to the design, this can be overcome on some but again, on ours there wasn't anywhere suitable for the extra hardware needed (clutches and winches), so we stuck with working at the mast.

 

[mattonthesea]

Decision is largely personal. I have almost all at the mast. It is not a problem to go there, it cuts down on friction and keeps the snakes out of the cockpit.
Also, at some point you will have to go to the mast, and, probably, in bad weather; if you are not used to it then that can be scary. Familiarity can bring comfort ?

 

[LadyInBed]

The biggest downside I can think of is that when the main is down or when you have reefs in there is a lot of line in the cockpit that needs management.
The second is the possible friction issue.
I think tailing back is more attractive if you have narrow side decks and/or the boat rocks a lot when someone walks on the side deck and poor hand holds.

 

[Tranona]

On older boats it is often an issue of cost. Going through this right now on the old boat I have just bought and doing it with all new gear doubt I will get much change out of £1200 just for the bits (bank of clutches £240, winch £400, Turning blocks, mounting plate and organiser £160, blocks and track for the boom £200, new (longer) halyards and reefing lines £200). This is for a 31' boat.

There are of course ways of reducing this, particularly on a smaller boat or by using secondhand blocks, or a winch currently on the mast.

As said a personal choice, but for me getting on a bit and on my own just about essential.

 

[johnalison]

I used to go to the mast, not to mention the foredeck, on 22’ and 26’ boats and thought nothing of it but when I and my boats grew up I realised what a lot of unnecessary trouble I had been going through. I don’t suppose that many sailors go overboard when going on deck to reef or otherwise manage the sails but I know that it feels a lot safer from the cockpit. There are some boats, such as the HR 36s and larger, where it seems necessary to have the main raised from the mast, but generally I feel that it is a step backwards except in small craft.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

As Tranny says, cost! I will add drilling lots of holes in your cabin top and fitting lots of backing plates then trying to make the headlining look anything other than a dogs breakfast.

I'm happy to go to the mast or foredeck as required.

 

[Wing Mark]

Friction. And more friction.
However shiny your mastfoot blocks and deck organisers are, it's always tons easier to pull the kite up from by the mast.
The other thing is, you're up near the mast flaking the main or retrieving the kite, and the halyard tangles in the cockpit half way...

 

[Channel Sailor]

Downsides I would say are: a lot of rope in the cockpit, if more than two crew then the crew can be in each other's way, friction increased but can be reduced if you spend more money, extra costs for rows of clutches instead of a simple cleats on the mast, hoisting the genoa into the furler foil takes two or a temporary cleat on the mast is needed, unless covered then the lines along coach roof are a hazard for crew working on the boom/mainsail, hoisting chutes/kites can be more difficult when short handed, if sweating up a halyard solo then having a cleat at the bottom of the mast makes it easier/possible, for some lines and on some boats the mast support pad is now under increased compression compared to having winches and halyard cleats on the mast, longer lines (often hi tech for lower friction and less stretch) means the replacement lines will be more expensive, if many clutches each side and just a pair of winches then a diverter might be needed to ensure the clutches and winches have the correct lead angle between them, sometimes the extra winches (on both mast and coach roof) are useful.

Upsides are plenty too, in addition to above: No winches needed on the mast so the lazy genoa sheet will not catch on them. Less winch maintenance and lower cost, because a self tailing winch on a mast suitable for a halyard can be a pretty big/hefty/expensive winch. Kicker can be easier to adjust/release from the cockpit.

As it happens I have just last week added a cam cleat to my yacht's mast so the spinnaker halyard can be controlled at the mast as well as in the cockpit. Might add another cam cleat on the mast for the pole Topping Lift for similar reasons.

 

[bitbaltic]

Most people underestimate just how many things have to be upgraded if you want to smoothly handle sails entirely from the cockpit. Even on new/newer boats which were built with all lines laid back, things that are essential to kill the friction involved (eg a mast track for the main) are probably not fitted (main probably running in the luff groove of the mast, as mine was). Even the choice of sail fabric, battens etc will impact on whether you can handle things smoothly from the cockpit because these things affect the weight and stiffness of the sail and thus the friction in the running rigging.

8 years ago I overhauled the entire sail handling system on my boat and with it the sail wardrobe too. This meant: new fully battened main, new genoa both in cruise lam, 4x new twin speed self tailing winches, all new furlex including the foil section and top swivel, new teflon track for mainsail, cars fitted to the sail, new organisers, blocks, all new dyneema running rigging (all of it) including undersized reef lines, new clutches, and probably other bits and pieces I cant remember. Excluding the sails (4K) this cost 9K for the parts and labour.

It turned a boat that had been built with lines led back in a system that worked averagely well (which means, basically badly) into a boat which (in my own experience and humble opinion) is unmatched in how easily her sails are handled, whatever the point of sail and whatever the weather. But, this is the sort of effort and money it takes to get a cockpit system absolutely bang on. And she's 30ft, so not too big a boat. Bigger gets even more costly.

Its also the prime reason that I cant upgrade to a bigger boat unless I win the lottery because a) I probably wouldn't find a buyer who understood how much value all that spend represents in sailing terms and b) on any other boat i'd feel I'd have to do it all again the moment I tried tried to reef.

Its probably better that you find a setup which you can reef quickly and therefore safely however you do it, but the sort of spends above do illustrate why owners of older boats don't do it, or only do the basics (lines back and clutches in the cockpit) which on the face of it *looks* like all that's needed. They do that, discover it doesn't make much difference without more spend, and stop.

 

[Tranona]

I converted my old boat 20 odd years ago, just main, topping lift and 2 single line reefs using the Barton gear. Stackpack and lazyjacks are important as is a good sailtrack. Worked very well for raising and lowering, first reef was sort of OK, but friction became a real problem for the second reef. Fortunately rarely if ever needed the second in the sort of sailing I do and the most important thing was to lift and drop what was a big main for the size of boat from the cockpit.

Will do similar with the new boat which is just a bigger version of the old and pay attention to minimising friction. May even bite the bullet and go dyneema!

 

[pyrojames]

Friction. I have around 600 sqft mainsail that I can't hoist in around 10 seconds at the mast. There is no way I could do that on a winch from the cockpit. However it is is very dependant on sail area and size of the vessel.

 

[Ningaloo]

The friction can be reduced by using dyneema lines one or two sizes down from polyester braid.
I totally agree that it is quicker to hoist at the mast, especially with larger (or heavier) sails. I could hoist the main 90% by hand from the cockpit on my 11m Hanse 385.(Pyrojames must be fitter than me as it would certainly take me more than 10 seconds!) Moving up to a 14m 458 with 60m2 laminate sail I have to use a power winch for at least 50% - but maybe it's my age! When I have crew i overcome this by using autopilot and bouncing the halyard at the mast while crew tails in the cockpit.
There are no coachroof winches on Hanse and all lines (except spinnaker sheets) come back to the primary winches by the helm, which I love. But I do sail singlehanded or with inexperienced crew a fair bit.
The cockpit is kept tidy by well placed rope bins so we only ever have the sheets in the cockpit.

 

[dunedin]

Friction. I have around 600 sqft mainsail that I can't hoist in around 10 seconds at the mast. There is no way I could do that on a winch from the cockpit. However it is is very dependant on sail area and size of the vessel.

I still much prefer the lines led aft. Fully crewed in fair weather we sometimes get somebody at the mast to heave the sail up and tail back at the clutch.
But so much easier when short handed to do everything in the cockpit. With similar sized fully battened sail can easily get head of sail beyond second spreader pulling from cockpit, and just winch the last bit. Sail can then be reefed or dropped without leaving cockpit - or indeed getting wet as sheltered under sprayhood.
As others have noted, good attention to avoiding friction pays benefits.

 

[pyrojames]

For can't read can! I have a single block at the mast head so friction is minimal.. I reach as high as I can and hang on the halyard. About 5 feet at a time equals 10 seconds. With smaller sails the timing is reduced, but hauling at the mast requires less effort overall.

 

[lustyd]

Current boat does, including main sheet in a clutch on the coachroof which took some practice to not hate, but it does work well enough as the boat isn't all that twitchy. Old boat had nothing but sheets in the cockpit. Having tried both I don't think I'd go out of my way to change a boat in this regard, if you have an autopilot just learn the ropes as they are. When I first got the old boat I thought I'd change it, but by the time I got around to it it didn't seem worth it, after all it had been sailed for 40 years quite successfully. I do miss the tidy cockpit at times too, I've noticed most newer boats have built in rope lockers to tidy the cockpit while under way.

 

[geem]

I still much prefer the lines led aft. Fully crewed in fair weather we sometimes get somebody at the mast to heave the sail up and tail back at the clutch.
But so much easier when short handed to do everything in the cockpit. With similar sized fully battened sail can easily get head of sail beyond second spreader pulling from cockpit, and just winch the last bit. Sail can then be reefed or dropped without leaving cockpit - or indeed getting wet as sheltered under sprayhood.
As others have noted, good attention to avoiding friction pays benefits.

Why is it so much easier to do everything in the cockpit? Genuinely interested. What are the problems going to the mast?

 

[pandos]

Why is it so much easier to do everything in the cockpit? Genuinely interested. What are the problems going to the mast?

If you are on your own coming into a busy place or in a rolling sea or fluky winds it is easier to handle the wheel and do things in the cockpit than go to the mast...

Autopilots can only do so much and not much use if getting the nose pointing upwind to raise the sail or free a batten from the lazy jacks involves zig zaging down a channel...

Things go wrong and get stuck so you need to be willing to go forward,

I can do everything sitting sitting behind the wheel, including putting in two reefs and raising and lowering main and furling the gib. (Until things go wrong)