Lights while sailing at night

[oldmanofthehills]

On a small boat they could be bad for helmsman's night vision, especially if they reflect off a white deck

My steaming light completely destroys my night vision if sail+motor, and rather disturbs it even if no sail set. On occasions in crab pot infested waters I had to just use my side and stern nav lights, before I changed wiring so I could use masthead "anchor" light with nav side lights (Stern light suppressed).

In the Solent yacht lights must be a nightmare for shipping, but then again my infrequent transits of the area seemed a chaotic nightmare for yachts as well.

 

[RichardS]

Your post didn't say anything about being at anchor - looked like you were saying that transmitting AIS while underway meant you could crack open the booze and stop keeping a lookout

Pete

It sure did

Not a snowball's chance in a hot place did it look like I inferred anything about being underway.

I said "Or flip on that AIS transceiver switch, crack open a bottle ..... and relax".

Now, if I was underway that AIS would already be switched on, of course, so "flipping it on" would be completely meaningless .... and "relaxing" strongly suggests that one is not on vigilant watch which, of course, would honly hever 'appen when one was hat hanchor.

With regards to "cracking open a bottle" ..... well I admit that on board the Good Ship Ajay that happens virtually 24/7 so there's absolutely nothing to be read into that about our state of passage, either way. :encouragement:

Richard

 

[Caer Urfa]

Surely if you do not show the correct masthead light/navigation lights at night and IF you had an accident under the law then you will be breaking the IRPCS rules and can be help responsible no matter what you say
to the judge whether its your fault or not !

 

[JumbleDuck]

Surely if you do not show the correct masthead light/navigation lights at night and IF you had an accident under the law then you will be breaking the IRPCS rules and can be help responsible no matter what you say
to the judge whether its your fault or not !

I'm not sure how you can be held responsible if it's not your fault. But that aside, I think the issue here is that there is no single solution. We have some carefully selected pictures showing mastheads lined up with the shore from the bridge of a small ship; I could go out for a day and take a similar selection of pictures showing deck level lights lined up with shore lights from the cockpit of my yacht. A masthead anchor light may be a bad plan for everybody anchoring off the end of a runway and next to a control tower, but can be great on the west coast to let other boats see you at a distance or over an island.

Maybe we could just exercise judgement about which lights to use when, or is that too hard?

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Or flip on that AIS transceiver switch, crack open a bottle ..... and relax. :encouragement: Richard

I understand that some big boats turn of class B AIS reception to reduce clutter - they shouldn't but I have been informed that they do. Unless things change leisure boats will not have class A due to cost, power requirements etc. Class A transponder is £1500 but Class B transponder is still £500. Class A transmit requirements can also bump class B data slot, leaving class B as incorrect/invisible until next slot

 

[Daydream believer]

Sigh.... You are meant to use a bit of imagination here.... bit hard taking photos to illustrate my point in the dark... esp if you can't see the lights...

If any of the yachts in those photos ( with one exception ) was showing just a tri they would be invisible.... if they were showing lights on the pulpit or taffrail the light would be showing against a backdrop of black.... and would be easily spotted.

Also... on these particular arrivals into this particular port we are approaching a major city... Melbourne, Straya, Jewel in Queen Victoria's Crown, richest city in the Empire, etc.... so lots of tall buildings , lots of lights...

Now, contrary to popular belief the watch - in clear vis - does not have their noses stuck in the ECDIS... they are actually looking out the windows...
So consider the photo top left and lets imagine that these yachts are on my starboard bow... maybe 2 points...lets assume the yacht on the right - which as you point out is motoring - is actually sailing and showing a trilight. Got to do a little bit of 'pretends' here...
View attachment 75830
So we see a red light... which is on the boat on the left which in this scenario is showing lights at deck level... steady bearing....
A quick look at radar and AIS.... sure enough there is indeed something there ( not all yachts run AIS...not all yachts show up on radar) ... maybe a mile off...so we haul around to starboard to pass close astern of her..... can't give her a mile or anything fancy... maybe 100 metres or even less.... as we are in pilotage waters and are shaping up for the Port Melbourne Channel.... have to cut it pretty fine...

This isn't just me making stuff up... my last day(?) job of 18 years involved arriving in that port in the dark for 6 months of the year and also - indeed quite often - sailing in the dark as well. It only took me a few days of daylight arrivals and departures to get those shots....

Anyway... do as you please... matters not to me....

You know... on a big ship you don't even feel the bump...

'Hey Captain, do you want a trilight and a windex and stuff?'

Just kidding... we had the anchor jammed in the hawse... sometimes happens when you are working to windward at 18 knots into a bit of a Bass Strait gale...
View attachment 75829

All that blather is really just trying to make your job look a bit difficult- Did you get the raise in pay ?? Or did the boss say " yeah! we will think about it & let you know":encouragement:
Seriously though, it is all simple col regs & the job of a ships captain to steer the ship around the other vessels. That is why you go through such intensive training before they let you out( I hope!!:ambivalence
You have not actually proved anything about the advantages/ disadvantages of one light system over another.
Those that made the rules clearly thought about it & they thought that the 2 options were Ok.( well 3 actually)
If they felt that one system should be used in preference to the other in certain situations, would it not be written into the IRPCS etc?

 

[DJE]

You have not actually proved anything about the advantages/ disadvantages of one light system over another.

I don't think there is a clear cut advantage to prove for one light configuration in all circumstances. But I have heard the same request for yachts to use deck level lights in preference to the masthead light from the master of another large vessel that frequently operates close to shore in crowded waters. So I tend to believe them.

 

[Kukri]

All that blather is really just trying to make your job look a bit difficult- Did you get the raise in pay ?? Or did the boss say " yeah! we will think about it & let you know":encouragement:
Seriously though, it is all simple col regs & the job of a ships captain to steer the ship around the other vessels. That is why you go through such intensive training before they let you out( I hope!!:ambivalence
You have not actually proved anything about the advantages/ disadvantages of one light system over another.
Those that made the rules clearly thought about it & they thought that the 2 options were Ok.( well 3 actually)
If they felt that one system should be used in preference to the other in certain situations, would it not be written into the IRPCS etc?

You have just proved two things. One is that you don’t have a clue about how the IMO goes about making regulations.

 

[doug748]

.............. I have heard the same request for yachts to use deck level lights in preference to the masthead light from the master of another large vessel that frequently operates close to shore in crowded waters. So I tend to believe them.

Yes, it has also been repeated, several times, over the years in the yachting press. Frank Holden's posts are a valuable reminder for us.

If it this is not thought useful, I can only put it down to a strain of corporate madness that seems to afflict the forum now and again.

 

[lw395]

The flip side is that the deck level lights are hidden from the bridge of a large ship by the bow, when the masthead lights are not.
It's a balance between being seen a long way away against shore lights, vs being seen close up under the bow.
Also a masthead light is closer to eye level for a typical ferry.
In reality, the differences are often overstated, a 40ft mast height is a small difference in angle when another vessel is spotting you a few miles off. But where things threaten to become a contact sport, the watch on the ship has apparently often seen the yacht well in advance, but it's altered course in an unexpected way subsequently.

There is also the point that to another smallish vessel, your masthead light will change angle vertically as you close, making it obvious that distance is reducing. A single light close to eye-level can be very deceptive.
In my experience, there is more smaller traffic to avoid than big ships which we see easily.

I don't believe there are a lot of incidents where the real key issue is the height of a yacht's lights.

 

[RichardS]

I understand that some big boats turn of class B AIS reception to reduce clutter - they shouldn't but I have been informed that they do. Unless things change leisure boats will not have class A due to cost, power requirements etc. Class A transponder is £1500 but Class B transponder is still £500. Class A transmit requirements can also bump class B data slot, leaving class B as incorrect/invisible until next slot

I did cover that in #56. However, switching on AIS can only ever increase your chances of not being hit. As there is no downside to switching it on, you might as well do it 'cos everything else should already be in place anyway.

Richard

 

[lw395]

I did cover that in #56. However, switching on AIS can only ever increase your chances of not being hit. As there is no downside to switching it on, you might as well do it 'cos everything else should already be in place anyway.

Richard

I have sailed on a boat where I felt the skipper thought he was invulnerable due to transmitting AIS. Coupled with a mildly shaky understand of colregs, it's not always a cure-all.
As the bowman put it, every ship in the channel knows some **** can't steer a proper course.
No doubt if we had hit anything, there would have been archived data pointing the finger our way....

 

[Daydream believer]

You have just proved two things. One is that you don’t have a clue about how the IMO goes about making regulations.

You are correct. I am probably not the only one. Perhaps you could enlighten us! ( about the IMO that is!!!)

 

[RichardS]

I have sailed on a boat where I felt the skipper thought he was invulnerable due to transmitting AIS. Coupled with a mildly shaky understand of colregs, it's not always a cure-all.

I can't imagine that anyone on here has ever suggested, or would ever suggest, that AIS is ever a cure-all, as that would imply holding the ludicrous belief that all vessels are even fitted with AIS. :ambivalence:

Richard

 

[alan_d]

Yes, it has also been repeated, several times, over the years in the yachting press. Frank Holden's posts are a valuable reminder for us.

If it this is not thought useful, I can only put it down to a strain of corporate madness that seems to afflict the forum now and again.

Well said.

 

[dom]

I don't believe there are a lot of incidents where the real key issue is the height of a yacht's lights.

Thread on here a while back of an anchored boat hit and seriously damaged by a fishing boat in Stokes Bay (just west of Portsmouth for those overseas).

With the benefit of hindsight, the solitary masthead anchor light was most likely lost amidst the shoreside lights. I understand the vessel's owner now backs this up with deck level lights which cast a soft light on the superstructure and rigging.

That's certainly what I do.

 

[lw395]

Thread on here a while back of an anchored boat hit and seriously damaged by a fishing boat in Stokes Bay (just west of Portsmouth for those overseas).

With the benefit of hindsight, the solitary masthead anchor light was most likely lost amidst the shoreside lights. I understand the vessel's owner now backs this up with deck level lights which cast a soft light on the superstructure and rigging.

That's certainly what I do.

Stokes Bay is a place I know well.
A brightly lit road along the shore.
Houses and streetlights behind.
The lights of Portsmouth ahead.
There is a tendency for small fishing boats to be traversing on autopilot while sorting out their gear.
It's not really comonly used as an anchorage.

Places like this, you need a lot more than a single 10W all-round white, you need to show the shape of your boat. A single lamp hidden by your mast over a significant arc (traffic is quite likely going either up tide or down) is a particularly poor idea.

A mate I used to sail with had a boat with dark blue topsides. We fitted some orange LEDs under the boom and under the spreaders, which made the shape of the boat obvious without being offensively bright or heavy on current.

I probably still wouldn't anchor in the middle of Stokes Bay though, anyone who's raced dinghies there will tell you it can be quite busy. The inshore fishing boats want to cheat the tide just as much as we do! Plus there are always boats going from Portsmouth to Cowes or back at all hours.

I think someone had a good go at hitting the USS Nimitz when it was parked further out in Stokes Bay, and that wasn't short of a light or two!

 

[Uricanejack]

Show whatever lights you like so long as thiey are the one of the correct options for lights for your vessel.

Personally. I choose to have correctly shaded individual side lights on the pulpit along with a stern light on the push pit.
With a masthead light combined fore deck flood light.
The lights are not obscured by my sails.
It doesn’t affect my night vision at all.
I have an anchor light at the top of the mast which is slightly better than useless, so I choose to hang a small battery led all round white from the fore stay about eye level 5ft ish abouve the fore deck. In place of the old oil lamp I can’t be bothered to clean,
I also carry a set of small battery led emergency Nav lights as back up JIK one of my Nav lights fails. They are a set of combined side lights and an all round white. A little bit of electrical tape turns it into a stern light.
I also have a radar reflector as required.

I prefere not to use a tri light. My personal opinion.

Some years ago I was traveling on a local ferry. Living on an island I do so regularly. I often like to sit or stand up forward and watch the world go by. It was a late night sailing.
I happened to see a red light to starboard. I thought was far away. I didn’t think anything of it. Until the ferry suddenly took evasive action going full astern.
I saw the Red light light go white then Green extremely close to the Starboard. It was a sail boat with a tri light. No back ground light ashore just a dark night.
I am sure if thevsail boat had not taken a round turn at the last moment the ferry would have run it down.
The ferry obviously ither hadn’t seen the sailboat until they were almost on top if it. Or like me they thought it was still far away.

My guess shorts had to be changed on both vessels.

So I agree with Minn & his friend Frank.

My boat my choice. I sail at night quite regularly. I don’t use the tri light.

 

[Frank Holden]

Oh look.... another one.... interesting that her lights were only 5 years old...
https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/25004/mair12_001.pdf

 

[[70521]]

Oh look.... another one.... interesting that her lights were only 5 years old...
https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/25004/mair12_001.pdf

1985!

As an author of technical documentation I would consider that as being from the dark ages, I work in a safety critical industry and if I had to go back that far I'd consider the activity to be safe.