Lifting the foredeck

[seasolutions]

Save yourself the dosh at the boat show,

the west book can be found here:

http://www.wessex-resins.com/pdf/English.pdf

page 17-18 shows the magic bolt gluieing process

 

[DownWest]

Tranona,
My doubts about end grain are not on exposure but more of the tensile pull of the the screw. OK, it's in shear, but still uncomfortable. It has managed for 30 yrs, so probably overkill. just my feel on howtoo.
A

 

[EastCoastChris]

Sorry I wasn't clear, I was meaning The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction book. I know much of which is available online but after discussing it here I decided to get a copy.

Thanks all for the comments and suggestions, once I've got the fitting off and seen what awaits underneath I've got a selection of options.

Given the size of the screws and the size of the epoxy "plug" required to be tapped (10mm diam?) would I need to worry about the heat generated whilst the epoxy was curing? I think one of the wooden plug options is favourite, but I like the idea of the more "engineered" approach.

Chris

 

[DownWest]

The heat from small hole fills is not a problem.
A

 

[fishermantwo]

Sorry I wasn't clear, I was meaning The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction book. I know much of which is available online but after discussing it here I decided to get a copy.

If you ever need advice on West systems stuff I would suggest a visit to Sailing Anarchy forums. In particular the Fix it section, supported by the Gougeon bros.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showforum=56

 

[fishermantwo]

If you ever need advice on West systems stuff I would suggest a visit to Sailing Anarchy forums. In particular the Fix it section, supported by the Gougeon bros.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showforum=56

I should have mentioned that the whole book can be down loaded in the "pinned" section at the top in that link.

 

[Tranona]

Tranona,
My doubts about end grain are not on exposure but more of the tensile pull of the the screw. OK, it's in shear, but still uncomfortable. It has managed for 30 yrs, so probably overkill. just my feel on howtoo.
A

If you look at it the fitting has way too many fastenings. The ones through the king plank are in tension and the ones through the stem are mostly in shear. There is no way that fitting is ever going to move with 150 sq ft of sail load on it. The stem head fitting I designed for my Eventide has three 10mm bolts through the king plank and 4 size 12 screws into the stem. Never moved in nearly 20 years.

The only thing that is important is ensuring the fastenings are in sound material and wood is perfectly adequate.

 

[EastCoastChris]

I should have mentioned that the whole book can be down loaded in the "pinned" section at the top in that link.

As I understand it the full Gougeon Brothers book is much more comprehensive than the "manuals" that can be downloaded from various locations for free.

Thanks for the link That will be useful.

Chris

 

[Tranona]

The book (I am looking at my copy now) is indeed comprehensive. It is, however very wordy and detailed with an emphasis on new construction, particularly lightweight racing craft.

Nice thing to have, but for repairs the material from Wessex Resins is just as useful.

 

[DownWest]

You are quite right Tranona, I was looking at the forward facing screws,the vertical ones are probably in end grain and likely soft wood. Be interesting to see what Chris finds under the fitting.
A

The Forum was so slow earlier as to be inactive, was this just here or in UK as well?

 

[EastCoastChris]

Be interesting to see what Chris finds under the fitting.

I'm hoping it won't be very interesting at all!

Chris

 

[EastCoastChris]

Confession Time

Apologies that I've not update this thread recently, mainly due to the very cold weather limiting progress. I'm waiting for some glue and paint friendly spring weather.

So what's the latest news for those interested....

Well the stem fitting came off very easily, mainly because the screws where either broken or into thin air behind the fitting!!

Looking at the photo below you can see how the screw holes either completely missed or only just caught the edge of the wooden block behind. Given the state of the bolts on the bowsprit, their really wasn't a lot holding it all in place

The plywood underneath looks a bit tired, but having given it a good going over with the bradawl it all seems sound. I have given it a coat of epoxy to stabilise and seal it, more of this in a mo. I'm not happy with the state of that little backing block, so I'm going to replace it with a full width block of solid teak (I'm assuming teak would be best for this?) to screw the stem fitting back onto.

From above the news was mostly good, considering how it looked in the previous photos.

The king plank is in very good condition, the top of the stem and the triangular area in the centre all seemed very solid. The only slight problem was a bit of softness in the very ends of the sheer clamps (Is that the right name for the longitudinal timbers between the ply of the hull and the king plank?)

This softness was *very* slight following a lot of poking and prodding, I came to the conclusion that it was only a very small area that was damaged. That presented a tricky decision. There would be an awful lot of surgery to extract and replace these bits of timber.

So apologies to the craftsmen amongst us, but I've opted for a quick fix (in the full knowledge that it is just that and that at some point in the future I will almost certainly have to do it again properly!). I have good access from the forepeak into the anchor locker to be able to regularly inspect for any degradation of the problem. So I shall be keeping a close eye on things.

I've used a technique that has worked very well for me with sailing dinghies which is as follows. I got the whole area well and truly dry by warming thoroughly with a heat gun and then leaving for a week or two for air to circulate. I drilled a large number of 1mm holes into the affected areas and well beyond. I then heated the wood again and used a 1mm hypodermic needle and syringe to inject Cuprinol 5 Star (has active fungicide) into the timber until it was completely saturated. This was left for a week to penetrate and then heated again to drive off any remaining solvent. Another week airing, and then heated a final time and warmed epoxy was forcibly injected into all of the holes and used to coat exposed end grain etc.

The hope is the combination of being thoroughly dried, soaked in preservative and fungicide, and sealed and reinforced with epoxy will make the wood pretty unappealing for at least a season or two.

As mentioned earlier, next I'm planning on replacing the block behind the stem fitting with full width piece of teak. I'm also minded to put a thick piece of teak over the front triangle. The aim of this is to have something solid to fasten the the fitting to and also to replace what was a mish-mash of little trim and covering pieces with a single solid lump of wood.

I'm pleased to have have everything cleared out, now it's time to start putting things back together!

Chris

 

[Tranona]

Good to see the progress. Unless you have a piece of teak spare, it is a bit of a waste for your block. A good straight grained pice of Iroko will be just as good and half the price if you have to buy it.

 

[EastCoastChris]

A good straight grained pice of Iroko will be just as good and half the price if you have to buy it.

That's a very useful tip, I just assumed teak as everything else is teak. Are there any differences in terms of suitability for that sort of use?

Chris

 

[Tranona]

Little difference. Iroko is often referred to as poor mans teak. Does not have the same rich colour and can have curly grain making it difficult to work. But holds fastenings and adhesives well and is durable.

 

[Vitalba]

Tranona " Little difference. Iroko is often referred to as poor mans teak..... holds adhesives well....."

The only two failures on a glue line that I can ever remember have both occured on Iroko. The first was using Cascamite, the second (on another job) involved Araldite after degreasing with Acetone.
I`m also seeing failures in adhesion of varnish on new mouldings so perhaps I should have degreased first.
Having said that old glue and varnish on Iroko, some of it 40 years old, seems OK. Perhaps Harry King at Pin Mill knew something I don`t. VITALBA

 

[Tranona]

I have never had problems with either epoxy or polyurethane adhesives. Don't use conventional varnishes now, but don't remember the Iroko bits being any better of worse than the mahogany bits on my boat. only problem I have encountered is curly grain which only shows itself when you machine into strips which twist unexpectedly!

 

[EastCoastChris]

Not sure what adhesive I'm going to use. Normally, epoxy would be my first choice, which will be fine for the rectangular piece for the front of the stem.

Not so sure for the triangular piece on top though, I want to be able to lift this off again if I need to and a large epoxy surface area like that might be a bit hard to shift again, even with heat. Would screwing the piece down firmly onto a thin bed of sikaflex work?

There's always the option of using epoxy and routing the piece off again if I have to remove it. Thinking about it, whilst that wastes the lump of wood, it may well be the best option for preventing water getting in there again.

It will be finished with of Coelan.

Chris

 

[Seanick]

Now come on. Stop dragging this job out! ;-)

 

[EastCoastChris]

Now come on. Stop dragging this job out! ;-)

Just been waiting for some warmer weather, honest. Work certainly hasn't been held up by my love of tea.

Chris