Lift keels on bigger yachts - views

[tomsis]

Hello everybody, some of you might have seen from another post, me and my buddy are considering buying a lift keel Jenneau 379. We are trading up from a bilge keel Moody and like the idea of being able to take the ground occasionally (only occasionally - we are berthed on a deep water mooring). I wonder, does anybody have any experience of lift keels in boats around the 37,38 foot level? What did you feel about the sailing characteristics, and was the mechanism just a problem waiting to happen or was it reliable?

 

[fredrussell]

There’s some interesting reading on Jeanneau lift keel boats on the owners forum here:

Lift Keels - taking the ground | Jeanneau Owners Forum

Worth a read, sort of backs up my feeling that lift keel boats done by the big French manufacturers are usually sold in much smaller numbers than their fixed keel boats and as a result are not as well thought out as boat manufacturers that only build lift keelers - the obvious example being Southerly yachts. I’m a bit biased as I own a Parker (lift keel) yacht - another company that only built lift-keelers. In fairness, both Southerly and Parker went bust years ago whilst Beneteau and Jeanneau seem to be doing all right!

 

[ashtead]

I suspect you might find info on an owners forum - that said for coastal sailing in north wales I’m sure it would be fine if you can find one and after a bilge keel moody you will think you are flying. Before we bought our Moody we were seriously looking at a41 jeaneau . I don’t think a lifting keel for coastal sailing has negatives provided the plate doesn’t get stuck up I think a test sail on one is way to go though before committing . Can you charter one anywhere?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

technically we are a lifting keel yacht, as are all Dragonflys, including the 40. The only difference is the mechanismfor lifting. Ours is a simple 2:1 purchase. Pull the string, up it comes. We regularly take the ground. Mud, sand, whatever as long as the water is calm. A heavier keel just requires more mechanicals, why would that be a problem?

 

[chrisclin]

I looked at a lift keel JenBen (can't remember which) a few years ago and couldn't work out the benefit. There was still a stub of fin with the lift keel only there to increase the draft. You certainly couldn't take the ground and stay flat and the previous owner admitted that he'd had problems with stones getting into the casing which required him to arrange to be lifted in slings while he poked things up the slot.
On the other hand he said that dropping the plate helped beating in deep water.

 

[wonkywinch]

I sailed a Jeanneau SO410 until recently and now bought a Beneteau Oceanis 38 both with lifting keels. The Jeanneau was electrically powered hydraulic and the Beneteau has a winch handle in the saloon that needs 60+ turns to raise/lower. Draft is 1.3m to 2.4m and the effect is very noticeable particularly with leeway on a beam reach and marina handling even in light winds.

The benefit is it gives us access to a lot more places in the Solent and when Newtown has 30-40 vessels in there, we can still find a space to drop anchor.

The Beneteau will stand on the keel and dry out, the rudders have rubber protective boots and there are beaching posts that clip in the sides but we've never tried it. Anchoring in 2m water is plenty enough for us.

 

[fredrussell]

I have a feeling that the Jeanneau 379 OP refers to has two rudders and will dry out ‘flat’. One of the posts in the owner’s forum post I linked to above talks about rudders in the plural. You would want to know the bottoms flat though.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I have a feeling that the Jeanneau 379 OP refers to has two rudders and will dry out ‘flat’. One of the posts in the owner’s forum post I linked to above talks about rudders in the plural. You would want to know the bottoms flat though.

Finding a flat bottom is certainly better for sleeping. And stops your G and T spilling when you put it down.

 

[wonkywinch]

I have a feeling that the Jeanneau 379 OP refers to has two rudders and will dry out ‘flat’. One of the posts in the owner’s forum post I linked to above talks about rudders in the plural. You would want to know the bottoms flat though.

The Jeanneau 410 manual specifically forbid drying out with the rudders in contact with the ground and they have a little less draft than the keel to help with this.

Like many twin rudder AWBs, they are splayed which would mean nasty lateral loads on the stocks if you took ground using them as support.

 

[fredrussell]

The Jeanneau 410 manual specifically forbid drying out with the rudders in contact with the ground and they have a little less draft than the keel to help with this.

Like many twin rudder AWBs, they are splayed which would mean nasty lateral loads on the stocks if you took ground using them as support.

Makes sense. In the thread I linked to I thought they talked about drying out sitting on keel stub and rudders but on re-reading it they don’t specifically say they do that, my mistake.

 

[Supertramp]

I can see the appeal of the ability to dry out, and depending on where you plan to sail in N Wales there are several estuaries that are off limits if you can't dry out. Doing it in a 37 footer is not something I've seen often.

If I wanted to dry out regularly then it's hard to argue against twin keels, at least of the Moody/Westerly type. A Southerly/Ovni type fully retracting keel would also be good (provided it never gets stuck up).

For the option to anchor close in I would choose a shoal draft fixed keel and accept the performance penalty. You could fit legs though they are a bulky item to store.

If you do go for a lift keel then it will come with a maintenance penalty for pennant replacement, pivot maintenance and occasional re epoxy/paint. Which isn't a deal breaker but needs factored in. Owners forums should clarify.

Make sure the board doesn't clonk in swell or when the boat rocks - N Wales anchorages can be rolly.

 

[geem]

I can see the appeal of the ability to dry out, and depending on where you plan to sail in N Wales there are several estuaries that are off limits if you can't dry out. Doing it in a 37 footer is not something I've seen often.

If I wanted to dry out regularly then it's hard to argue against twin keels, at least of the Moody/Westerly type. A Southerly/Ovni type fully retracting keel would also be good (provided it never gets stuck up).

For the option to anchor close in I would choose a shoal draft fixed keel and accept the performance penalty. You could fit legs though they are a bulky item to store.

If you do go for a lift keel then it will come with a maintenance penalty for pennant replacement, pivot maintenance and occasional re epoxy/paint. Which isn't a deal breaker but needs factored in. Owners forums should clarify.

Make sure the board doesn't clonk in swell or when the boat rocks - N Wales anchorages can be rolly.

A friend with a Southerly 135 had to have his 10 year lift and keel removal. New pivot pin. Not a cheap job but part of the maintenance on such a boat.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I can see the appeal of the ability to dry out, and depending on where you plan to sail in N Wales there are several estuaries that are off limits if you can't dry out. Doing it in a 37 footer is not something I've seen often.

If I wanted to dry out regularly then it's hard to argue against twin keels, at least of the Moody/Westerly type. A Southerly/Ovni type fully retracting keel would also be good (provided it never gets stuck up).

For the option to anchor close in I would choose a shoal draft fixed keel and accept the performance penalty. You could fit legs though they are a bulky item to store.

If you do go for a lift keel then it will come with a maintenance penalty for pennant replacement, pivot maintenance and occasional re epoxy/paint. Which isn't a deal breaker but needs factored in. Owners forums should clarify.

Make sure the board doesn't clonk in swell or when the boat rocks - N Wales anchorages can be rolly.

Clonking, aargh! Ours does that, it is vital to lift the centreboard for a good night's sleep. Obviously not an issue on a tri, but the thought of it on a lift keel mono does not bear thinking about.

 

[potentillaCO32]

Jim who used to be on here as full circle, used to have a jeaneau 37 lift keel. I think he has sold it so hope he doesn't mind me being a little rude about it.

Inside it was lovely. Jim loved it and it sailed pretty well downwind or on a reach. It was really useful for the east coast being shallow.

However, and forgive me Jim, it was a bit of a dog upwind. We did burnham week class 6 together a couple of times and he was just miles and miles behind the decent fin keeled boats when beating upwind.

So a great comfortable cruising boat, quite fast and ok if your not in a rush upwind.

 

[Ian_Edwards]

Hi,
As you can see I have a Southerly 46RS built in 2007. I've also owned a Parker 275 and my first cruser was a Jaguar 21, all had lift keels.
The all sailed really well, and had high aspect ratio foil shaped keels, which gave the really good upwind performance.
The downs sides are ;
1) Relatively poor righting moment, despite having high ballast ratios. They needed quite a lot of weight in the bilge to give the boat stability when the keel is up.
The Southerly has a 4 ton grounding plate, recessed into the hull and a 2.5 ton lifting keel.
2) Lack of directional stability, especially board reaching in a quartering sea. The shallow twin rudders don’t help, they lack control authority. You need to Reef the main, even then, the boat will still outperform yacht of a similar size.
I don't dryout that often, but I do lift the keel to allow anchoring in shallow bays. This is really useful in popular anchorages, you can usually find a spot at the head of the Loch.
For coastal cruising, I'd always go for a lifting keel. For long distances "blue water" cruising, I'd choose a cat.
The Southerly 46RS has a draft of 3.3m keel down an 0.8m keel up.
And by the way, none of the keels on the lifting keel boats I've owned, have ever clonked. If it clonks it's not properly engineered!

 

[geem]

Hi,
As you can see I have a Southerly 46RS built in 2007. I've also owned a Parker 275 and my first cruser was a Jaguar 21, all had lift keels.
The all sailed really well, and had high aspect ratio foil shaped keels, which gave the really good upwind performance.
The downs sides are ;
1) Relatively poor righting moment, despite having high ballast ratios. They needed quite a lot of weight in the bilge to give the boat stability when the keel is up.
The Southerly has a 4 ton grounding plate, recessed into the hull and a 2.5 ton lifting keel.
2) Lack of directional stability, especially board reaching in a quartering sea. The shallow twin rudders don’t help, they lack control authority. You need to Reef the main, even then, the boat will still outperform yacht of a similar size.
I don't dryout that often, but I do lift the keel to allow anchoring in shallow bays. This is really useful in popular anchorages, you can usually find a spot at the head of the Loch.
For coastal cruising, I'd always go for a lifting keel. For long distances "blue water" cruising, I'd choose a cat.
The Southerly 46RS has a draft of 3.3m keel down an 0.8m keel up.
And by the way, none of the keels on the lifting keel boats I've owned, have ever clonked. If it clonks it's not properly engineered!

One of the larger Discovery's also share the same shallow rudders. A guy we met who had sailed one across the pond in some lively conditions described the rudders as awful. The rudders would lose grip and the boat would round up alarmingly in a quartering sea. He was very, very unhappy with the boat. There is a reason why the twin rudders on Imocas are about 2.5m long.

 

[dunedin]

Hello everybody, some of you might have seen from another post, me and my buddy are considering buying a lift keel Jenneau 379. We are trading up from a bilge keel Moody and like the idea of being able to take the ground occasionally (only occasionally - we are berthed on a deep water mooring). I wonder, does anybody have any experience of lift keels in boats around the 37,38 foot level? What did you feel about the sailing characteristics, and was the mechanism just a problem waiting to happen or was it reliable?

I believe the standard fin keel Jeanneau 379 sails very well.
Unless you have a major need of a lifting keel, personally I would go for the fin keel - simpler/less hassle, sails better, more available to choose from.
Perhaps different if had budget for one of the very last series of Southerlies, which sailed very well. But otherwise I,would keep it simple personally.

 

[Poecheng]

We have a Stephen Jones designed 2010 Southerly 38 (our seventh boat and our second Southerly)
We find it excellent and echo Ian's comments above though, with this boat, we consider we have excellent directional stability. Last boat was a Stephen Jones Sadler 290 which was stable and fast and I didn't want to lose any of that boat's many qualities and we, naturally, gave a lot of thought to what could sensibly follow it. From the beginning and now, after a couple of seasons in which we have used her a lot and in some weather (for us), we are very pleased indeed.

 

[tomsis]

So many excellent perspectives. It feels really like quite a balanced debate. I think I’m swing the trade off as being complexity vs extra mooring options. We don’t need to go super fast upwind and I’d hope with a boat with a good sailing reputation she would at least be okay.

On the mechanism - It’s got twin canted rudders, but sits on the stubby bit of the keel when she dries. It’s a simple puppy system into a winch to raise her.

Hmmmmm

 

[dunedin]

So many excellent perspectives. It feels really like quite a balanced debate. I think I’m swing the trade off as being complexity vs extra mooring options. We don’t need to go super fast upwind and I’d hope with a boat with a good sailing reputation she would at least be okay.

On the mechanism - It’s got twin canted rudders, but sits on the stubby bit of the keel when she dries. It’s a simple puppy system into a winch to raise her.

Hmmmmm

Does the fin keel also have twin rudders? Twin rudders (as opposed to twin wheels) makes manoevering in harbour slightly more difficult, and adds more maintenance costs for the rudder bearings etc.