Liferaft and Grab Bag contents

[StellaGirl]

Re: Nothing at all

I understand that but what if you were to hit a submerged container as does happen? I am not sure how you could avoid letting her go.

 

[Sea Devil]

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Just remember to take your 406 EPIRB with you into the raft and you will be rescued within a day in most parts of the world.
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That is a little optimistic I think John - there are large parts of the world where there is not the financial ability to launch a search and rescue every time an epirb goes off.... The Pacific around Equador and along south america. between tjhe Galapabos and Marquese - most of the Indian ocean except areas around US military bases....
EPIRBs are great in the area of rich countries but in poore ones sea areas a notice on navtext asking ships to keep a sharp lookout is more likely. 85%of all epirb alerts are false............

 

[ShipsWoofy]

an outboard and a couple of hundred gallons of petrol

 

[Mirelle]

Re: Nothing at all

Since I sail in the Channel and the southern North Sea, in that unhappy event I would step reluctantly into the liferaft and out my trust in the RNLI.

Grab bags are for mid-Pacific, methinks.

 

[Ships_Cat]

I am sorry but I don't want to go down another long torturous track with you Micheal on distress matters but you will find that an oceanic 406 EPIRB alert will always be responded to as it is part of GMDSS. It will be given the same attention as an INMARSAT C alert. The position fix will be immediately made while the registered EPIRB owner and his nominated registered contacts are contacted. If they cannot be contacted or contact with them determines that the vessel is at sea then a rescue will be immediately undertaken.

You are perhaps being confused by the handling of 121.5 MHz EPIRB alerts where many nations, whether rich, poor, small or large do not make an immediate response unless there is other evidence of distress such as a radio call. That because ownership of the EPIRB is not known and so no check can be made as to if the alert is valid or not.

Your comment on poor countries, ships only being asked to keep a sharp look out, etc are entirely misleading and may falsely cast doubt in others minds as to the value of an EPIRB. Many (most?) oceanic rescues are indeed made by merchant ships as on receipt of a 406 alert the relevant Rescue Coordination Centre will task any suitable vessels in the area to the fixed position of the EPIRB to make the rescue - they will not, in the case of a 406 alert, be asked to just keep a lookout.

The wealth or size of the countries near to where the alert is made is totally irrelevant to the way a 406 (or INMARSAT C) alert is handled. In the case of smaller or less wealthy countries responsible for Search and Rescue Region's (SRR's), for example Fiji, Chile, etc they have an excellent record and as far as size is concerned, NZ, one of the smaller nations, is responsible for one of the larger SRR's. If the Rescue Coordination Centre nation needs further resources not available in its country, such as aircraft for an air search should the EPIRB stop transmitting or other reason, then those resources will be provided by adjacent nations (for example, Fiji often uses NZ Orions and Hercules).

If you are interested in reality a browse of the COSPAS/SARSAT site is worthwhile http://www.cospas-sarsat.org.

It may be worth noting that the SRR's are harmonised between IMO and ICAO (aviation's equivalent) and I suspect that they, and indeed many ship operators and crews, would be most surprised and upset if your views were correct.

Finally, it is indeed a fact, that most rescues in the Pacific resulting from 406 EPIRB alerts are made before the distressed ones get into their liferaft or within a day of their doing so.

John

 

[TheBoatman]

Amazing

Amongst all of your list you didn't include a spare pair of glasses! What use is it if you can't read any of the distructions for the rest of yer kit?
Thats if you need reading glasses in the first place of course!

Peter.

 

[Sea Devil]

Re: Life raft and Grab Bag contents

Dear John,

As always you have an in depth knowledge of the good intentions of organizations but the reality is simply not what you imagine - The 406 EPIRB system works really well in first world countries sea areas. If you let one off then search and rescue will be with you quickly.

In other parts of the world you would not be doing this forum a service if you suggest the system works any where near perfectly - there will be self Acessed reports from various countries telling you that all is wonderful but you would be unwise to take them at face value - There are large parts of the world where the alarm of a 406 EPIRB will only, in reality, result in ships being asked on Navtext to 'keep a sharp look out.'

The majority of world ships are not going to alter course to look - Certainly many antipodean, US European might - might, but most Captains - will order a sharp look out and continue to try to make a profit for their employers.

To sum up - if you are world voyaging you need a grab bag - fishing equipment - containers of extra water, sun hats, and ideally a hh vhf and spare charged batteries as well - I also have a very pistol and a large supply of rounds - as well as all the equipment in an offshore life raft.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: Life raft and Grab Bag contents

As always you have an in depth knowledge of the good intentions of organizations

What a very shallow fob off.

So what you are saying is that if a UK forumite (or any other vessel with a registered 406 EPIRB) initiates a 406 alert then the RCC for the SRR in some other part of the world and in which the alert is made may not initiate a rescue.

If so, what do you think the UK RCC Falmouth who hold the database for UK registered EPIRBs are going to think and do about that if a rescue is not initiated in another SRR by the responsible RCC?

RCC Falmouth will know of the alert as they will be required to notify the vessel's identity and liaise with the beacon owner's nominated contacts. If there was no rescue attempt for a UK vessel in another SRR I suspect that there would be an international incident, don't you?

To claim that the primary distress alerting method (together with INMARSAT C which only covers 70N to 70S) in GMDSS does not work is just plain silly and demonstrates entire ignorance of the facts.

The dangerous part of your views is that some people who do not know better may base their decisions on purchase of a 406 EPIRB on your ill informed views. I would be sure that the better informed will see your comments for what they are.

John

 

[Santana379]

Re: Life raft and Grab Bag contents

Re Mirelle's thought that nothing is required in a grab bag in the Southern North Sea and the Channel, also my cruising grounds.

I agree not much is needed, over and above the liferaft's own kit. The RNLI are fabulous provided they know you're in distress.

However a liferaft will typically have only a handful of flares in it. On Francis Fletcher we use the boats flare cannister with RORC flare set as a grab bag, so we would have all the remaining flares with us if abandoning ship. Also in the cannister are 4 x TPAs (space blankets), the handheld VHF and spare batteries when crossing the Estuary or the North Sea, 2 x triangular bandages, a spare pair of the skipper's reading glasses, and a spare penknife.

If there was time to gather other items, there is a laminated short checklist attached to flare cannister which covers items such as warm clothing, drink & food, handheld GPS and mobile phone.

Francis Fletcher

 

[webcraft]

[ QUOTE ]
A 406MHZ GPS EPIRB . . . some reading material

[/ QUOTE ]

- A magazine maybe, not War and Peace?

- Nick

 

[Sea Devil]

406 EPIRB and Grab bags

Of course a 406 EPIRB is the first line of rescue alert but if you really believe that means a Grab Bag in not necessary and that rescue will appear because you have set of a 406 EPIRB then you are extraordinarily naive.

The DSC false alarm - constant alerts causing skippers to effectively switch off or not install the system is a mirror of the 406 EPIRB false alarm problem.

Of course your home S&Rescue authority will be contacted -your home S&R will confirm you are at sea with your telephone contacts and inform the the 'local to the incident' S&R authority that the alert appears to be genuine. The local Search and Rescue authority will then take appropriate action. That 'appropriate action' will sometimes be issuing a navtext alert asking all ships in the area to 'keep a sharp look out'. Sometimes it will divert a frigate to investigate - and even wealthy countries like Australia grumble about the cost of this!

'Appropriate action' means that the poorer countries do what they can afford or are empowered to do, then issue a report that the signal has stopped - (battery flat) no sign of the vessel concerned was found (in fact nobody was close to the position) We did everything possible but were too late (someone found some floating wreckage) etc etc etc.

The concept that all the merchant ships in the area are going to alter course to investigate the EPIRB alert is naive in the extreme. More than 85/95% of all EPIRB alerts are from EPIRB that have been accidentally activated or washed overboard and not recovered!

The freight industry is highly competitive and merchant ships captains will not get brownie points from their employers for altering course to investigate. Nor will they retain their jobs if they go rescuing - Vietnamese boat people or similar. This is not the cosy world of Australia/Europe/USA but a very hard world where life is cheap.

It is very dangerous to go offshore - into distinct waters with the idea anything has changed with the electronics of 406 and other emergency beacons. As before you must be self sufficient and carry equipment to help you survive if the worst does happen.

It is not all as efficient and certain as John appears to believe.
I have been told by Australian coast guard that help is not available for the crew of a yacht in storm force winds on a coral reef 60 miles off shore.
I have been told by a British embassy official in Saudi Arabia that no helicopter help is available for an English yachtsman, dieing in my arms, unless someone will guarantee the charges for the helicopter and my credit card number over the phone is not sufficient!

If you choose to voyage in distant waters there are real and present dangers - do not rely on some electronic international system to get you off the hook - A wonderful thing to do - but it is at your own risk -

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: 406 EPIRB and Grab bags

Seems that you agree with me then Michael.

What will not happen is that RCC Falmouth (for a UK boat) will end up having to phone the EPIRB registered contacts (in the case for yachts they are often family members) back and say "Sorry, but the Rescue Coordination Centre in the SRR the EPIRB has been activated in does not do rescues. Trust that your family (friends or whatever) have a fishing line and plenty of water because we are not going to do anything either". That is what your claim that a 406 EPIRB alert may not be responded to would mean. I think any one can see that would not happen.

Extrapolating my comments into rescuing yachts off reefs in storm force conditions and dying men out of the arms of others with helicopters is all for irrelevant dramatic effect and has nothing whatsoever to do with anything that that I said. And in fact would seem to have very little to do with what you would have in your own grab bag either, unless you cart ocean going tugs and medical teams around with you.

Sounds like you have had an uncommonly long string of unhappy distress situations - I wonder why?

Would be interesting to hear what some professional mariners off these merchant ships that you claim will not facilitate rescues have to say about your accusation that they do not care. All I have met wouldn't give your claim the time of day.

Looking forward to your response. No need for any more from me, I am quite confident that my point is well made.

John

 

[Santana379]

Re: Survival Kit

By coincidence my daily desk calendar offers some relevant wisdom on the subject today.

It says "Every survival kit should include a sense a humour"

It also says, with less relevance, "1851 - US manufacturer Isaac Singer invented the single-thread domestic sewing machime".

Francis Fletcher

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: Survival Kit

Every survival kit should include a sense a humour

Almost along those lines that the Outward Bound schools came about during WWII - well if not humour, to have the right attitude when distressed anyway /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

John

 

[Sea Devil]

a 406 EPIRB alert may not be responded to would mean.....

Am I accident prone? Maybe? My sailing experiences make me cautious? Yes!!

I suppose that if you live aboard for 10 years and travel in far away places then you will witness more 'incidents' - yachts on reefs - crews in yachts having life threatening medical conditions - I have been hit by lightning and attacked by pirates and had a crew fall in gale conditions and sustain injury - is my God trying to tell me something? Not sure but what happens in daily city NZ life of a similar period? Much the same I suspect -

It is very important that you do not try to persuade people that the press of a 406 button will result in rescue! - off shore sailing is very easy these days but to minimize the dangers, away from safe home waters that you sail in, is doing no one a favour.

Hate to repeat myself - but:-

'Appropriate action by S&R responing to EPIRB alarms' means that the poorer countries do what they can afford or are empowered to do. Then issue a report that the signal has stopped - (battery flat) no sign of the vessel concerned was found (in fact nobody was close to the position) 'We did everything possible but were too late' (someone found some floating wreckage) etc etc etc. It is all to do with the financial value of human life - governments.

Of course nobody reprort 'no action taken'. They will all take appropriate action - for them.

Setting off a 406 EPIRB in some part of the world will result in good intentions but little else.

Not sure what the grab bag reference was about - I have a flare container with fishing tackle, sun hat, very pistol - flares - water and some other items in it. what is wrong with that?

 

[Ships_Cat]

Have dug out some statistics from COSPAS/SARSAT on false alerts:

For 406 EPIRB's approx 83% of alerts are false worldwide but of those approx 70% are resolved immediately as being false alerts by contact with the EPIRB's registered points of contact.

So, for 100 alerts around 83 will be false of which 58 will be resolved immediately by the registered points of contact. Leaving about 40 false alerts unresolved per 100.

That is only approx 40% of alerts cannot be immediately resolved as being actual distress.

Approximately 10% of 406 EPIRB's are not registered, I assume by people who do not agree with registration /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. Obviously, alerts from those beacons are unlikely to be responded to.

For 121.5MHz EPIRB,s (which will not be supported after 2009) approximately 2 in 1,000 alerts are actual distress and only approx 1 in 5 of all alerts actually come from EPIRB's - the rest coming from other services using the same frequency and which the satellites can not discriminate between. These alerts obviously cannot be determined as to their validity as the beacon has no identification. Most countries do not initiate a search for these alerts unless additional alert information is received.

For vessels for which I am responsible I always disassemble the beacon's hex coding (its identification) as a check that is has been correctly coded. From doing that I have come across two supplied for new vessels which were incorrectly coded. For those who have not the facilities to do this, you should always make sure that you get the printed statement of coding from the beacon supplier or servicer and check it for correctness (usually country MID and the vessels serial, if your country uses a serialised identification, or MMSI otherwise are the important bits.

John

 

[STANLY]

Re: 406 EPIRB and Grab bags

[ QUOTE ]
The concept that all the merchant ships in the area are going to alter course to investigate the EPIRB alert is naive in the extreme.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing on most merchant vessels will directly detect an EPIRB signal. It is up to the RCC system to detect EPIRB signals and organise SAR as best they can with the assets available.

On the other hand, SART & DSC signals probably will be detected. If a distress signal, alert or message is received by whatever means, we are almost always obligated to assist. (There are a number of get-outs but these are few). As professional mariners, most Masters would be insulted by Eloise_Ex_Bambola's implication that we will just ignore another vessel in distress.

If you really want to get RCC attention, carry a second EPIRB registered to exactly the same MMSI as the first. Although there are a huge number of false EPIRB alerts, the chances of having two from the same vessel at the same time in the same location are so tiny that any RCC will be pretty convinced they have a real alert on their hands.