Kristal
New member
You seem to have your flaps in the "landing" position in that picture, UncleAlbert...
Lifejackets on a plane
- Thread starter irishmark
- Start date
whisper
New member
Re: Lifejackets on a plane - UPDATE
Having just gone through the contents of both Easyjet's and Ryanair's Baggage Restrictions. I can confirm that CO2 cylinders are not on their "forbidden" lists.
Having just gone through the contents of both Easyjet's and Ryanair's Baggage Restrictions. I can confirm that CO2 cylinders are not on their "forbidden" lists.
ClassicPlastic
New member
Re: Lifejackets on a plane - UPDATE
Sadly, IATA, who are the 'authority' on this topic, choose not to make the regulations available online (they prefer to charge for a copy - although our tickets have paid for the reg's).
However, I am happy to confirm, on the basis of (considerable) professional experience, that life jacket cylinders ARE dangerous goods and MAY NOT be carried on board an aircraft, either as hand baggage or hold luggage, on ANY AIRLINE.
Some airlines (easyJet for one, in my experience) do not bother having permissions to carry Dangerous Goods at all (even where the appropriate steps might be taken in respect of such items, on an individual basis).
DG training does not often extend to check-in staff.
The best bet is to take the jackets, raft etc, minus the cylinders, having already ordered replacement cylinders to be delivered to the boat at your port of departure (by sea).
Sadly, IATA, who are the 'authority' on this topic, choose not to make the regulations available online (they prefer to charge for a copy - although our tickets have paid for the reg's).
However, I am happy to confirm, on the basis of (considerable) professional experience, that life jacket cylinders ARE dangerous goods and MAY NOT be carried on board an aircraft, either as hand baggage or hold luggage, on ANY AIRLINE.
Some airlines (easyJet for one, in my experience) do not bother having permissions to carry Dangerous Goods at all (even where the appropriate steps might be taken in respect of such items, on an individual basis).
DG training does not often extend to check-in staff.
The best bet is to take the jackets, raft etc, minus the cylinders, having already ordered replacement cylinders to be delivered to the boat at your port of departure (by sea).
whisper
New member
Re: Lifejackets on a plane - UPDATE
I don't quite understand the logic behind your post. Can you explain why Easyjet and Ryanair refer to a long list of specified items, such as cylinders containing gases, other than CO2, that are prohibited, yet CO2 cylinders are not classified similarly. For example oxygen cylinders are acceptable provided that they are under a given size.
I'm not trying to be awkward but surely if the situation is as you say and that there is a real risk involved then these small CO2 cylinders would also be on the prohibited list. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I don't quite understand the logic behind your post. Can you explain why Easyjet and Ryanair refer to a long list of specified items, such as cylinders containing gases, other than CO2, that are prohibited, yet CO2 cylinders are not classified similarly. For example oxygen cylinders are acceptable provided that they are under a given size.
I'm not trying to be awkward but surely if the situation is as you say and that there is a real risk involved then these small CO2 cylinders would also be on the prohibited list. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Shanty
Member
Re: Lifejackets on a plane - UPDATE
Setting aside the question of whether or not CO2 cylinders appear on various lists, I would be interested to know whether the aircraft's own lifejackets use the same cylinders as yottie type lifejackets. Does anyone know?
Setting aside the question of whether or not CO2 cylinders appear on various lists, I would be interested to know whether the aircraft's own lifejackets use the same cylinders as yottie type lifejackets. Does anyone know?
BrendanS
Well-known member
Re: Lifejackets on a plane - UPDATE
I'm also puzzled by classicplastics post. My sister was aircrew, and also a trainer. In a previous thread on subject, she looked up regs and gave advice which I posted here. Airlines differ, and check in and helpdesk people aren't the right people to ask, as often they don't know regs in detail.
Ask to speak to a supervisor who understands relevant regs. Most airlines will in fact allow you to carry life jackets no problem, some might ask you to detach cylinder so life jacket doesn't inflate accidentally and cause damage. Regs vary by airline, so ask first.
I'm also puzzled by classicplastics post. My sister was aircrew, and also a trainer. In a previous thread on subject, she looked up regs and gave advice which I posted here. Airlines differ, and check in and helpdesk people aren't the right people to ask, as often they don't know regs in detail.
Ask to speak to a supervisor who understands relevant regs. Most airlines will in fact allow you to carry life jackets no problem, some might ask you to detach cylinder so life jacket doesn't inflate accidentally and cause damage. Regs vary by airline, so ask first.
ubuysa
New member
Re: Lifejackets on a plane - UPDATE
......and as I've posted here already, I asked Easyjet customer services whether I could carry them and they said YES.
Tony C.
......and as I've posted here already, I asked Easyjet customer services whether I could carry them and they said YES.
Tony C.
aidancoughlan
Member
Re: Lifejackets on a plane - UPDATE
I asked Rynair customer service (by phone) to check if I could carry lifejackets, and they also said YES. When I arrived I noted the lifejackets to check-in and they wouldnt let me bring them on. After calling a supervisor, the supervisor confirmed that they wouldnt be allowed on unless the canisters were removed & left at left-luggage.
The check-in staff told me not to worry, they have automatic life-jackets on all the planes - no need to bring your own
I asked Rynair customer service (by phone) to check if I could carry lifejackets, and they also said YES. When I arrived I noted the lifejackets to check-in and they wouldnt let me bring them on. After calling a supervisor, the supervisor confirmed that they wouldnt be allowed on unless the canisters were removed & left at left-luggage.
The check-in staff told me not to worry, they have automatic life-jackets on all the planes - no need to bring your own
whisper
New member
Re: Lifejackets on a plane - UPDATE
Aidan,
Was the reason that you had to leave the cylinders at left-luggage because it was too late, at that stage to, put them in your checked-in baggage ? Or did they just say NO you can't put them in there either ?
Just seems very confusing, as some say yes and others say no, depending on who you talk to at each airline.
Thanks
John.
Aidan,
Was the reason that you had to leave the cylinders at left-luggage because it was too late, at that stage to, put them in your checked-in baggage ? Or did they just say NO you can't put them in there either ?
Just seems very confusing, as some say yes and others say no, depending on who you talk to at each airline.
Thanks
John.
ubuysa
New member
Re: Lifejackets on a plane - UPDATE
I emailed Easyjet customer services and took a copy of the email response with me each time I flew. I told the check-in clerk each time and never had a problem!
It all sounds a bit like the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.......
Tony C. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I emailed Easyjet customer services and took a copy of the email response with me each time I flew. I told the check-in clerk each time and never had a problem!
It all sounds a bit like the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.......
Tony C. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
EdEssery
Member
It seems to me that there can be no danger from a 33g cylinder of compressed air attached to a lifejacket on an aircraft. If there was any danger the lifejackets under the seats of every European registered aircraft and every aircraft that crosses the Atlantic would be removed. They have no value under your seat - it is a well known fact that an aircraft lifejacket has never saved a life -- not once. If there was any evidence they were dangerous, they would simply have been removed thereby removing the danger and saving the airline cost.
Whilst this state of affairs pertains, it seems entirely reasonable for educated people to question why they can't carry on their own lifejackets (with cylinders unscrewed if necessary) and expect a reasonable and consistent answer - all airlines fly the same makes of aircraft and the fundamental principles of civil aircraft aeronautical engineering are the same across all manufacturers.
It would be helpful if MASH could but some detail on the bones but I suspect he knows as much (or as little) about it as the rest of us. He is a Pilot and as a profession it seems to be highly regulated and process oriented. Whilst pilots are no doubt trained to look at the basics of their aircraft, in the event of any trouble or issues, they call upon the aircraft engineers. I would be more interested in hearing what the issues are from an aircraft design engineer than from a Pilot whose primary responsibilities are an unquestioning adherence to laid down procedures. I should add I'm very thankful for process orientation of pilots and flying - it's made air travel the safe mode of transport it is today. It has not, however made Pilots all knowing Aircraft Design and Aeronautical Engineers.
So speak up you aircraft engineers (or CAA representatives)
Furthermore, in my opinion it is unacceptable to dive straight in and shout imbecile at somebody you don't even know, especially someone who has contributed as much to the forum as this individual has. Such behaviour would see you removed from any respectable yacht club.
Just my 2p
Ed
Whilst this state of affairs pertains, it seems entirely reasonable for educated people to question why they can't carry on their own lifejackets (with cylinders unscrewed if necessary) and expect a reasonable and consistent answer - all airlines fly the same makes of aircraft and the fundamental principles of civil aircraft aeronautical engineering are the same across all manufacturers.
It would be helpful if MASH could but some detail on the bones but I suspect he knows as much (or as little) about it as the rest of us. He is a Pilot and as a profession it seems to be highly regulated and process oriented. Whilst pilots are no doubt trained to look at the basics of their aircraft, in the event of any trouble or issues, they call upon the aircraft engineers. I would be more interested in hearing what the issues are from an aircraft design engineer than from a Pilot whose primary responsibilities are an unquestioning adherence to laid down procedures. I should add I'm very thankful for process orientation of pilots and flying - it's made air travel the safe mode of transport it is today. It has not, however made Pilots all knowing Aircraft Design and Aeronautical Engineers.
So speak up you aircraft engineers (or CAA representatives)
Furthermore, in my opinion it is unacceptable to dive straight in and shout imbecile at somebody you don't even know, especially someone who has contributed as much to the forum as this individual has. Such behaviour would see you removed from any respectable yacht club.
Just my 2p
Ed
ditchcrawler
Well-known member
I posted about this last year & got a response that the regulations re Dangerous Goods do allow the carrying of gas lifejackets although some airlines do not allow it.I got a response from Easyjet that they do allow it although many of the check in people are unaware of their own attitude towards the regulations & I asked them to check with the supervisor when OK was given.
nealeb
New member
[ QUOTE ]
As far as GPS is concerned, do GPS sets not talk back to the satellite? In any case they have been assessed as having the potential to transmit RF, even if locally, and can therefore by definition interfere with navigation, autopilot or communications. Have you no imagination whatever?
[/ QUOTE ]
One problem here is that a little incorrect information in a post tends to shade one's attitude to the rest of the post (until it emerged what was actually driven by the poster concerned, anyway!). GPS sets do not, absolutely do not, send anything back to the satellites, despite the implication that they do in almost every newspaper article that mentions people "being tracked by satellite". If a handheld GPS gives out any RF, that will almost certainly be no more than that given out by, say, a laptop computer, a CD player, or even a handheld FM radio. The reason that these are banned, I would be sure, is not that they have been tested and found unsafe, but that they have not been tested and therefore not proven to be safe in the way that most things to do with aviation are. I would certainly not worry if I were sat next to someone on a flight with a handheld GPS - although I suspect that it would not work anyway as the antenna would be screened by the surrounding metal tube. I can't get mine to work reliably in a train!
What's the betting that the CO2 cylinders in under every aircraft seat come from the same factories as the yottie ones and are near-identical, but that they cost ten times more because they have been through a formal safety certification? Not a criticism - just thinking out loud why some are permitted and some not.
As far as GPS is concerned, do GPS sets not talk back to the satellite? In any case they have been assessed as having the potential to transmit RF, even if locally, and can therefore by definition interfere with navigation, autopilot or communications. Have you no imagination whatever?
[/ QUOTE ]
One problem here is that a little incorrect information in a post tends to shade one's attitude to the rest of the post (until it emerged what was actually driven by the poster concerned, anyway!). GPS sets do not, absolutely do not, send anything back to the satellites, despite the implication that they do in almost every newspaper article that mentions people "being tracked by satellite". If a handheld GPS gives out any RF, that will almost certainly be no more than that given out by, say, a laptop computer, a CD player, or even a handheld FM radio. The reason that these are banned, I would be sure, is not that they have been tested and found unsafe, but that they have not been tested and therefore not proven to be safe in the way that most things to do with aviation are. I would certainly not worry if I were sat next to someone on a flight with a handheld GPS - although I suspect that it would not work anyway as the antenna would be screened by the surrounding metal tube. I can't get mine to work reliably in a train!
What's the betting that the CO2 cylinders in under every aircraft seat come from the same factories as the yottie ones and are near-identical, but that they cost ten times more because they have been through a formal safety certification? Not a criticism - just thinking out loud why some are permitted and some not.
whisper
New member
I have a Garmin 76 handheld and this works perfectly well from a window seat, or it does until a steward tells you to turn it off /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Glad I restarted this thread as the early posts became rather aggressive, rather rapidly. A lot more sensible lately.
Glad I restarted this thread as the early posts became rather aggressive, rather rapidly. A lot more sensible lately.
aidancoughlan
Member
Re: Lifejackets on a plane - UPDATE
Hi Whisper,
I was actually willling to check in the lifejackets as baggage, but no - they wouldnt let them on in the hold either. We had arrived in plenty of time (SWMBO) and went to check-in immediately after the gate opened.
There does seems to be confusion among airline staff - I suspect ryanair's regulations dont specifically cover canisters, and the staff are relying on 'precedents' set by different supervisors in the past - probably depends who you get on the day.
I left the canisters in left-luggage(collected them later on the way back), and brought the jackets with me. I was just going for a test sail on the boat I was buying, but if going on holidays I think I would plan to buy a canister at the other end just in case.
best regards,
Aidan.
ps. after the scandal at Dublin airport security the other day, I'll definitely not be bringing canisters in future. Airport inspection allowed inspectors board a plane with knives in their shoes and a mock bomb in a case. Apparently,the day after saw queues a mile long !
Hi Whisper,
I was actually willling to check in the lifejackets as baggage, but no - they wouldnt let them on in the hold either. We had arrived in plenty of time (SWMBO) and went to check-in immediately after the gate opened.
There does seems to be confusion among airline staff - I suspect ryanair's regulations dont specifically cover canisters, and the staff are relying on 'precedents' set by different supervisors in the past - probably depends who you get on the day.
I left the canisters in left-luggage(collected them later on the way back), and brought the jackets with me. I was just going for a test sail on the boat I was buying, but if going on holidays I think I would plan to buy a canister at the other end just in case.
best regards,
Aidan.
ps. after the scandal at Dublin airport security the other day, I'll definitely not be bringing canisters in future. Airport inspection allowed inspectors board a plane with knives in their shoes and a mock bomb in a case. Apparently,the day after saw queues a mile long !
whisper
New member
Thanks Aidan.
Nm
Nm
Benbow
New member
[ QUOTE ]
One problem here is that a little incorrect information in a post tends to shade one's attitude to the rest of the post
[/ QUOTE ]
I fear that was my response too (although GPS sets do generate RF but not of course to talk to satellites!). The other comment about the Florida crash being caused by dangerous hold baggage also raised my 'dubious levels'. It is strictly true, but on a totally different scale. If I recall, the airline shipped a load of oxygen generators. These are hazards in a different ballpark to a CO2 cylinder.
One problem here is that a little incorrect information in a post tends to shade one's attitude to the rest of the post
[/ QUOTE ]
I fear that was my response too (although GPS sets do generate RF but not of course to talk to satellites!). The other comment about the Florida crash being caused by dangerous hold baggage also raised my 'dubious levels'. It is strictly true, but on a totally different scale. If I recall, the airline shipped a load of oxygen generators. These are hazards in a different ballpark to a CO2 cylinder.
Lizzie_B
New member
Re: Lifejackets on a plane - UPDATE
Hi Aiden,
There certainly is a lot of confusion with airline ground staff at check in desks on this question, and also with security staff. I have made a lot of flights in the last 18months to and from the States and Europe.
Each time I have succesfully taken my gas inflatable hamer lifejacket with the cylinder attached. On every occasion except one I was required to take it on as hand luggage with the cylinder attached to the jacket and the restriction has been one jacket per person.
You can usually find the individual airlines' preference on their website under PFD. Searching under gas cylinders usually brings up the general safety card about no pressurised containers that you see at check in.
The people who have stopped and queried me have been the ground security people at the scanner, each time advice of a senior has been sought and the senior has cleared it.
The only time I have been asked to carry the jacket as checked luggage was in Charlotte Airport in South Carolina. Having just arrived on a US Airways flight from Gatwick where I was asked to carry it as cabin baggage, it caused great consternation at the scanner for the connecting US Airways domestic flight to Tampa.
None of the security people seemed to know what to do, then the local sheriff's department man said I could transport it but only as checked baggage as the life jacket could potentially be used as a weapon against the cabin crew-
(I refrained from saying 'so could a pencil') and went back and checked it in as checked baggage much to the suprise of the guy at the check in desk/ He rather decently upgraded me to first class for the trouble of having to rejoin the rather long queue to go back through security.
Imagine my surprise when in first class I was served my drinks in glass glasses (presumably terrorists can't afford first class;-bombing on a budget)!!!!
I am about to fly out to the states with Delta Airlines. Their website informs me that I can 'carry one gas inflated personal flotation device with small cylinder attached as checked baggage'.
The nice man I phoned at customer services said it would be helpful if it was spread out in the top layer of my bag so that it was obvious to the scanner that it was a life jacket, and would cause less disruption to my packing if someone decided to investigate!!
Needless to say I will be taking a print out of the page.
If you like you can PM me and I will be glad to give you a run down of airlines and airports that I have used and each of their attitudes. One thing they have all been consistent about is one per person with cylinder attached to jacket. In fact in Corunna and Palma the security staff checked specifically that the cylinder was attached.
I have never been queried in security when boarding at Heathrow or Gatwick. I'm not sure if that is a sign that they know their job or don't!!!!
Good Luck.
Hi Aiden,
There certainly is a lot of confusion with airline ground staff at check in desks on this question, and also with security staff. I have made a lot of flights in the last 18months to and from the States and Europe.
Each time I have succesfully taken my gas inflatable hamer lifejacket with the cylinder attached. On every occasion except one I was required to take it on as hand luggage with the cylinder attached to the jacket and the restriction has been one jacket per person.
You can usually find the individual airlines' preference on their website under PFD. Searching under gas cylinders usually brings up the general safety card about no pressurised containers that you see at check in.
The people who have stopped and queried me have been the ground security people at the scanner, each time advice of a senior has been sought and the senior has cleared it.
The only time I have been asked to carry the jacket as checked luggage was in Charlotte Airport in South Carolina. Having just arrived on a US Airways flight from Gatwick where I was asked to carry it as cabin baggage, it caused great consternation at the scanner for the connecting US Airways domestic flight to Tampa.
None of the security people seemed to know what to do, then the local sheriff's department man said I could transport it but only as checked baggage as the life jacket could potentially be used as a weapon against the cabin crew-
(I refrained from saying 'so could a pencil') and went back and checked it in as checked baggage much to the suprise of the guy at the check in desk/ He rather decently upgraded me to first class for the trouble of having to rejoin the rather long queue to go back through security.
Imagine my surprise when in first class I was served my drinks in glass glasses (presumably terrorists can't afford first class;-bombing on a budget)!!!!
I am about to fly out to the states with Delta Airlines. Their website informs me that I can 'carry one gas inflated personal flotation device with small cylinder attached as checked baggage'.
The nice man I phoned at customer services said it would be helpful if it was spread out in the top layer of my bag so that it was obvious to the scanner that it was a life jacket, and would cause less disruption to my packing if someone decided to investigate!!
Needless to say I will be taking a print out of the page.
If you like you can PM me and I will be glad to give you a run down of airlines and airports that I have used and each of their attitudes. One thing they have all been consistent about is one per person with cylinder attached to jacket. In fact in Corunna and Palma the security staff checked specifically that the cylinder was attached.
I have never been queried in security when boarding at Heathrow or Gatwick. I'm not sure if that is a sign that they know their job or don't!!!!
Good Luck.
BrendanS
Well-known member
Re: Lifejackets on a plane - UPDATE
[ QUOTE ]
The people who have stopped and queried me have been the ground security people at the scanner, each time advice of a senior has been sought and the senior has cleared it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. As I posted earlier, ground and check in staff, rarely know the rules, so just say no. Ask for a supervisor or someone who actually knows rules. You'll rarely be declined
[ QUOTE ]
The people who have stopped and queried me have been the ground security people at the scanner, each time advice of a senior has been sought and the senior has cleared it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. As I posted earlier, ground and check in staff, rarely know the rules, so just say no. Ask for a supervisor or someone who actually knows rules. You'll rarely be declined
boomerangben
Well-known member
Re: Lifejackets on a plane - UPDATE
For any one still reading this thread:
Dangerous goods have nothing to do with aeronautical engineers or aircraft maintainers. IATA have decided what constitutes a dangerous good and what precautions need to be taken when transporting them. The regulations are extensive and cover almost every item that could be concievably be carried on an aircraft, including radioactive goods (and yes radiactive sources may be carried on aircraft). I do not have a copy of the dangerous goods regs to hand, but I will check what it says tomorrow regarding CO2 cylinders. From memory, the greatest risk from CO2 is that of asphyxia and I imagine that CO2 cylinders would be permitted providing they could not be activated. I have had no problems carrying my lifejacket as hold baggage with BA and I wear a lifejacket in my job as a pilot.
Life jackets are provided on aircraft because that is what the law requires airlines to do. Having an automatic sailing type of lifejacket in the cabin is dangerous for obvious reasons. But that is not to say that they cannot be safely carried in the hold.
As for bus drivers, most pilots could be described as bus drivers, but I think they are too well paid to be a bus driver and if I did drive a bus, I would be insulted. I could be described as an ambulance driver, but that would insult ambulance drivers.
For any one still reading this thread:
Dangerous goods have nothing to do with aeronautical engineers or aircraft maintainers. IATA have decided what constitutes a dangerous good and what precautions need to be taken when transporting them. The regulations are extensive and cover almost every item that could be concievably be carried on an aircraft, including radioactive goods (and yes radiactive sources may be carried on aircraft). I do not have a copy of the dangerous goods regs to hand, but I will check what it says tomorrow regarding CO2 cylinders. From memory, the greatest risk from CO2 is that of asphyxia and I imagine that CO2 cylinders would be permitted providing they could not be activated. I have had no problems carrying my lifejacket as hold baggage with BA and I wear a lifejacket in my job as a pilot.
Life jackets are provided on aircraft because that is what the law requires airlines to do. Having an automatic sailing type of lifejacket in the cabin is dangerous for obvious reasons. But that is not to say that they cannot be safely carried in the hold.
As for bus drivers, most pilots could be described as bus drivers, but I think they are too well paid to be a bus driver and if I did drive a bus, I would be insulted. I could be described as an ambulance driver, but that would insult ambulance drivers.