Life in Portugal Post Brexit, Has the World Moved For You❓

[srm]

I assume when we pitch up in an EU country as non-EU citizens (whether or not we are residents), we will have our UK passport date stamped.

The interesting debate could be when we come to leave and it is apparent that we have been in the Schengen Zone in excess of 80 days. If you are leaving from your country of alternative residency - no problem. But if you are leaving for another EU country, questions could be asked.

For example:- As a Portuguese resident, fly into/out of Faro - no problem but if you fly into Faro and then try to depart from Seville some 100 days later, questions could be asked.

My wife travels on a Canadian passport so we have had a bit of experience with this. In Norway and Denmark there are designated ports where passports can be stamped in or out at the Police Station. Probably, there is something similar in other Schengen countries. Heading back to the UK from Norway we were almost at 90 days so went and got passports stamped out. It was a while before they found the stamp but then it had dried out so the process took a while. It was September and the North Sea was definately in an unfriendly mood for heading west so we quietly stayed in an otherwise deserted yacht harbour for quite a while longer before making a dash to Peterhead. She then had to get an inward stamp from the UK boarder guards, done over the phone and by fax! (Long gone are the days when a port the size of Peterhead, or a lot smaller, had its own Customs officers).

In Ponta Delgada heading down to Santa Maria (both in Portugal) the SEF officer stamped my wife out just in case we finished up in North Africa . . . . no we did not understand either. It was a few weeks before we were back in Ponta Delgada and on departure for Terceira I rembered to ask the SEF officer to officially stamp her back into Portugal as Santa Maria does not have an SEF office. In the Azores we have to check in and out of every harbour, which makes a sort of sense given that we are way out in the Atlantic.

The onus has been on us to keep the stamps up to date. However, the Canadian government does recommend that their citizens make sure they get both in and out stamps for the Schengen Zone.

My wife now has a non-EU spouse residence card for Portugal but it only gets her into Portugal, elsewhere in the EU she has to use her passport.

As someone else commented internal travel could cause complications. I did hear of a US citizen who overstayed the 90 days and was warned at the airport departure passport check that her details were being recorded and she could be blocked from re-entering the Schengen Zone. Probably a good idea to go through exit passport controls with a big queue behind you so the officer does not start counting your in and out days.

 

[nortada]

Depends where you are going to from Seville. If it's another EU country there are no passport checks at all for anyone. All they want is an identity check which can be your residence card. I know that because my German daughter in law never uses her passport to travel within EU. Uses her id card and did so from both Faro and Seville on two seperate occasions last year to fly back to Germany. I will be going to Germany from Faro in a couple of months and intend to travel on my Portuguese residence ID card to test it out. You do not even go through passport control at Faro if flying to another EU country that is inside Schengen.

The examples you quote applied to British citizens of the EU. Post Brexit could be a whole new ballgame. At Faro, we understand, there are to be dedicated checking facilities for Brits entering the country.

Understand that because there is no photograph, temporary resident’s documentation cannot be used to conform identity.

That leaves a British traveller having to produce their British passport to prove identity. Which in certain circumstances could generate questions over length of stay in Schengen territory.

Only time will tell and I would anticipate the truth will not become apparent until over 3 months after the end of the Transition Period - say April 2021.

Until this is resolved (one way or the other) it might be prudent to plan departures only from countries where you hold residency - in this example Portugal.

 

[greeny]

The examples you quote applied to British citizens of the EU. Post Brexit could be a whole new ballgame. At Faro, we understand, there are to be dedicated checking facilities for Brits entering the country.

Understand that because there is no photograph, temporary resident’s documentation cannot be used to conform identity.

That leaves a British traveller having to produce their British passport to prove identity. Which in certain circumstances could generate questions over length of stay in Schengen territory.

Only time will tell and I would anticipate the truth will not become apparent until over 3 months after the end of the Transition Period - say April 2021.

Until this is resolved (one way or the other) it might be prudent to plan departures only from countries where you hold residency - in this example Portugal.

My daughter in law is German not British so the example does not only apply to British citizens before Brexit, in fact nothing to do with being British.
We've already been told by AFPOP that we are to continue to use the EU passport control queue until at least the end of transition period, they made a specific question to Faro airport authorities and that was their reply. No visas, no stamping, nothing changed until end of transition at least.
I agree temporary residence does not carry a photo so can't be used for ID. Permanent residence card does' so that is what I will be travelling on to Germany.
As you say, I doubt anyone will know anything for sure, until transition is complete. All we can do right now is position yourself and boat in the place you wish to be and get every piece of paper you can to justify your continued location there. Residency, Health registration, EHIC card, the basics.
Then wait and see.

For info:-

Afpop information received last week.
UK Passports and travel in the EU
To clarify the situation regarding entry into Portugal and travel within the EU now that the UK has exited the EU, we have confirmed with the management of the airport in Faro that UK passport holders are still able to use the EU Passport channel when returning to Portugal. We advise that Members should also carry their Residency Cards or certificates just in case they are requested, but at the moment the EU passport channel is still available to UK citizens and is likely to remain so until at least the end of the transition period.
Travel for UK passport holders within the EU in 2020 also remains unchanged, unless there is an agreement reached before the end of the transition period. However neither of these issues are likely to change before December 31st of this year.
If the situation regarding passport control changes, the airport management has agreed to inform us and we will of course let our UK Members know as soon as we have any further news on the passport or travel issues.
Kind Regards,
The afpop Team

 

[nortada]

My daughter in law is German not British so the example does not only apply to British citizens before Brexit, in fact nothing to do with being British.
We've already been told by AFPOP that we are to continue to use the EU passport control queue until at least the end of transition period, they made a specific question to Faro airport authorities and that was their reply. No visas, no stamping, nothing changed until end of transition at least.
I agree temporary residence does not carry a photo so can't be used for ID. Permanent residence card does' so that is what I will be travelling on to Germany.
As you say, I doubt anyone will know anything for sure, until transition is complete. All we can do right now is position yourself and boat in the place you wish to be and get every piece of paper you can to justify your continued location there. Residency, Health registration, EHIC card, the basics.
Then wait and see.

For info:-

Afpop information received last week.
UK Passports and travel in the EU
To clarify the situation regarding entry into Portugal and travel within the EU now that the UK has exited the EU, we have confirmed with the management of the airport in Faro that UK passport holders are still able to use the EU Passport channel when returning to Portugal. We advise that Members should also carry their Residency Cards or certificates just in case they are requested, but at the moment the EU passport channel is still available to UK citizens and is likely to remain so until at least the end of the transition period.
Travel for UK passport holders within the EU in 2020 also remains unchanged, unless there is an agreement reached before the end of the transition period. However neither of these issues are likely to change before December 31st of this year.
If the situation regarding passport control changes, the airport management has agreed to inform us and we will of course let our UK Members know as soon as we have any further news on the passport or travel issues.
Kind Regards,
The afpop Team

Thanks for this clarification. As you intimated, because she is German, your DiL is a bit of a red-herring.

I agree, until the end of the TP, probably nothing will change.

When it could get interesting could be when you travel from Faro to Germany after 90 days in Portugal.

 

[Graham376]

I agree temporary residence does not carry a photo so can't be used for ID. Permanent residence card does' so that is what I will be travelling on to Germany.

Are you sure? My Portuguese permanent residence card has photo but I'm told can not be used as a travel document. Holding one "may" act as a visa when they're introduced but we'll have to wait and see.

Arrived through Lisbon airport this week, used passport scanner as usual.

P.S. This publication states clearly that as a non EU national (which we will be) a passport is required for travel to the EU - Travel documents for non-EU nationals – Your Europe

 

[nortada]

Are you sure? My Portuguese permanent residence card has photo but I'm told can not be used as a travel document. Holding one "may" act as a visa when they're introduced but we'll have to wait and see.

Arrived through Lisbon airport this week, used passport scanner as usual.

P.S. This publication states clearly that as a non EU national (which we will be) a passport is required for travel to the EU - Travel documents for non-EU nationals – Your Europe

OK, I know, a bit pedantic but I believe we are already non EU nationals.

The TP suggests that 'everything is as before' but I am not sure how all encompassing 'everything' is (certainly trade) but freedom of movement is a different animal and we are reading reports that other EU countries (France?) are starting to play hard ball.

Our greatest strength is we are interested in our future in Portugal and as we know Portugal is making some very encouraging noises on their future relationship with Brit visitors.

 

[RAI]

My permanent residence ID card in Belgium could not be used as a travel document, I tried once, but the Ryanair girl new the difference and I had to show her my passport to get on board.
Having got Belgium citizenship, my almost identical ID card lets me travel within Schengen and as far as I can tell, within the EU.

I suspect the Schengen immigration officers' computers will get linked and will be able to identify those non-EU citizens who encroach the 90/180 day visitors rule on exiting a Schengen border.

When I was a permanent resident in Germany, I got told off by a German immigration officer for not showing both my British Passport and my residence ID (Aufentshaltserlaubnis). That was years ago though.

On another topic, hope you got your residence in Portugal established early. Seems the ten years of no tax on foreign income is coming to an end and Portugal will be applying a small tax to it, in addition to tax on any Portuguese income (like holiday rentals).

 

[Graham376]

On another topic, hope you got your residence in Portugal established early. Seems the ten years of no tax on foreign income is coming to an end and Portugal will be applying a small tax to it, in addition to tax on any Portuguese income (like holiday rentals).

The 10 year holiday (Non Habitual Residency rules) is for people formally emigrating from UK to Portugal, who don't have to pay tax anywhere - UK or Portugal. For the rest of us, according to UK tax sources the double tax agreement is still in place and no mention of it ending.

 

[RAI]

The 10 year holiday (Non Habitual Residency rules) is for people formally emigrating from UK to Portugal, who don't have to pay tax anywhere - UK or Portugal. For the rest of us, according to UK tax sources the double tax agreement is still in place and no mention of it ending.

Yes, the 10 year NHR rules require residency in Portugal as such.
The UK never lets go of tax on rent for properties owned by non-resident landlords.
The UK has the right, under most double tax agreements, to tax UK pensions on people receiving them who are non-resident to the UK. The double tax agreement really only applies to income tax. Pensions are different, as is inheritance tax.

 

[Graham376]

Yes, the 10 year NHR rules require residency in Portugal as such.
The UK never lets go of tax on rent for properties owned by non-resident landlords.
The UK has the right, under most double tax agreements, to tax UK pensions on people receiving them who are non-resident to the UK. The double tax agreement really only applies to income tax. Pensions are different, as is inheritance tax.

All very complicated and differences if one has dual residency, which we have. As it stands at the moment, we pay all taxes on income (just pensions and savings) in UK and nothing in Portugal except property and car taxes.

 

[25931]

Depends where you are going to from Seville. If it's another EU country there are no passport checks at all for anyone. All they want is an identity check which can be your residence card. I know that because my German daughter in law never uses her passport to travel within EU. Uses her id card and did so from both Faro and Seville on two seperate occasions last year to fly back to Germany. I will be going to Germany from Faro in a couple of months and intend to travel on my Portuguese residence ID card to test it out. You do not even go through passport control at Faro if flying to another EU country that is inside Schengen.
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[25931]

Depends where you are going to from Seville. If it's another EU country there are no passport checks at all for anyone. All they want is an identity check which can be your residence card. I know that because my German daughter in law never usses her passport to travel within EU. Uses her id card and did so from both Faro and Seville on two seperate occasions last year to fly back to Germany. I will be going to Germany from Faro in a couple of months and intend to travel on my Portuguese residence ID card to test it out. You do not even go through passport control at Faro if flying to another EU country that is inside Schengen.

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[25931]

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APOLOGIES

 

[Beneteau381]

Depends where you are going to from Seville. If it's another EU country there are no passport checks at all for anyone. All they want is an identity check which can be your residence card. I know that because my German daughter in law never uses her passport to travel within EU. Uses her id card and did so from both Faro and Seville on two seperate occasions last year to fly back to Germany. I will be going to Germany from Faro in a couple of months and intend to travel on my Portuguese residence ID card to test it out. You do not even go through passport control at Faro if flying to another EU country that is inside Schengen.

Is that why they have moved the passport control in Faro back to near the toilets?

 

[RAI]

I gather that current NHRs will get their 10 years tax free but new ones will have a small tax (10%) on foreign income.

All very complicated and differences if one has dual residency, which we have. As it stands at the moment, we pay all taxes on income (just pensions and savings) in UK and nothing in Portugal except property and car taxes.

 

[nortada]

Just been asked if there any cases of Coronavirus have been reported in Portugal?

Answer - not heard of any and this is one of the many benefits of being in this far flung western corner of Europe. Of course this could all change with influx of holidaymakers later in the year.

 

[25931]

Just been asked if there any cases of Coronavirus have been reported in Portugal?

Answer - not heard of any and this is one of the many benefits of being in this far flung western corner of Europe. Of course this could all change with influx of holidaymakers later in the year.

There are people arriving daily at Faro from all over.

 

[goeasy123]

Does anyone have experience with Non Habitual Residency for tax purposes?

 

[25931]

Does anyone have experience with Non Habitual Residency for tax purposes?

Perhaps professional advice would be advisable as the rules are likely to change.

 

[srm]

Does anyone have experience with Non Habitual Residency for tax purposes?

I tried for this in 2016 as was under the impression (from various internet sources) that it applied to pension income. The advice I got, from various officials in Financas including the local head of tax, was that it is for people who are employed in specified skilled occupations. There is a list of employment classifications that qualify for the scheme. The fact that I was employed in the UK in a qualifying area was not relevant as I am not employed in that field in Portugal. Incidentally, all the officials I had contact with were polite and helpful, but admitted that they were not familiar with Non Habitual Residency.

Having made a total mess of my own tax returns and facing a significant charge I went to an accountant who sorted the whole thing out so that I do not pay Portuguese tax on my UK pensions. All for the princely sum of 20 Euro + IVA. I now get him to file my zero tax return each year and regard his nominal fee as an insurance payment as he will also resolve any subsequent questions by the tax authorities.

I second the comment by 25931 regarding professional advice being a good idea.