Licensing for pleasure craft.

[Rhumpole]

It seems an anomaly to me that with the current Government's pursuit of taxing virtually everything they can, that they appear (so far anyway) to have left the many thousands of small privately owned pleasure craft dotted all around our coast free of this burden.
- However, it also seems to me that it is only right and fair that those with (sometimes very large) private craft, of all types, should be prepared to be taxed like the motor car, and to be licensed to use the vessel and its ancilliary equipment. In this respect the United Kingdom is now out of step with the rest of Europe. This would undoubtedly raise standards of seamanship and provide the necessary "income" for the future safety of our beloved coasts.
Rhumpole.


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[Moose]

"This would undoubtedly raise standards of seamanship" Oh really! What has licensing done for motorists, has it raised standards?
Are you simply having a go at people with a) A boat or b) A boat bigger and maybe better than yours?

Why is it "right and fair"? What maintainance do the seas need, there are no roads to build out there!!!

Do you work in this government or have you just lost your mind?



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[BobE]

Hear Hear Moose


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[Moose]

I am trying to restrain myself from writing what I really want to!

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[flaming]

So what other sporting equipment should be taxed and liscenced?

Golf clubs? Why not!? If liscencing increases safety then golf should surely be liscenced before boats, far more accidents!


Remember that if you want to use a car or other vehicle on private land only it doesn't need to be taxed. That's the equivalent here, not cars for road use.

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[Rhumpole]

Well, no Moose, my boat is not bigger than yours but it's simply not reasonable to assume that the Government will not go down this road in the future, and we should be prepared for it.
- Lets face it, and be honest, some - (who are in the minority - of course!) of our friends who "go boating" have scant idea of what they are doing and they are the very one's who simply jump into the vessel after the quieter winter months, only to be be given a tow, free and gratis, courtesy of the RNLI, when the engine, or something else, fails.
- Contrary to popular belief our seas DO need maintenance for their upkeep and cleanliness and to quote the MCA banner "Safer lives, Safer Ships (Irgo pleasure craft too), Cleaner Seas. It all costs money, and it has got to be got from somewhere!
Mmmmm! I see that you are going to take a lot of convincing!
Rhunpole.

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[Moose]

Your right, I am going to need some convincing that you haven't lost your mind and want to give more money to this government so they can waste it building a big tent in the middle of London or maybe they will buy more speed cameras with it. Mmm, good idea.

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[YINDOOR1]

I have to say that I have to agree with you rumpole, there are a lot of rescues at sea by the RNLI and the vast majority are to the pleasure industry. We simply cannot argue with that it is a positive fact, that cannot be argued with.

I have also witnessed a very nice motor cruiser not too far away from me at this time, who discharged his used engine oil into the sea when he thought no one was looking.

It is up to the boating fraternity to follow the same rules that the commercial vessels have to comply with. This all costs money and it has to come from somewhere.



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[Dominic]

A Splendid Troll.

Well done Rhumpole. You have jumped straight in with a guaranteed way of raising the blood pressure in a thousand forum readers.

(I must confess to having made a few provocative posts myself - but I hope not to this time).

Now I accept that the Government has missed a trick in not finding extra ways to tax us - though it keeps trying.

And I find nothing wrong with your first paragraph.

Your second contains some sloppy assumptions and illogical connections.
To quote you ;

""However, it also seems to me that it is only right and fair that those with (sometimes very large) private craft, of all types, should be prepared to be taxed like the motor car, and to be licensed to use the vessel and its ancilliary equipment. In this respect the United Kingdom is now out of step with the rest of Europe. This would undoubtedly raise standards of seamanship and provide the necessary "income" for the future safety of our beloved coasts.""

It seems right and fair to me that you should be taxed for each turd that is emitted from your back side, or each breath you breathe. Your arse should be taxed like a motor car - to use your own analogy. Is your methane production covered by the Kyoto Accord ?

Are you aware of the taxes that apply to large craft ? And the licensing for very large craft ? (To you large is possibly 40 ft - to me it is over 200 tons).

Why should boats pay to protect the coast ? Again it your digestive system that causes them more damage (or pollution) than your boat.

Ancillary equipment is taxed. Radios for a quick example and VAT on safety gear for another.

And when my boat is in mid-Atlantic - to whom should I pay my taxes to ? Mexico presumably being the nearest country ?

And will this raise standards of seamanship ?

Seamanship is learnt by both teaching and more importantly by trial and embarrassing cock-up. Despite Britain´s Darwinian approach to sailing skills they have a suprisingly low casualty rate compared to other European countries; those same countries that have compulsory boat driving tests.

I think you are just being silly and trying to wind us up.

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[MainlySteam]

<<<discharged his used engine oil into the sea when he thought no one was looking. It is up to the boating fraternity to follow the same rules that the commercial vessels have to comply with>>>

What strange reasoning. It is already illegal to discharge oil into the sea and no licencing is needed for prevention of it.

Did you just stand by and watch the discharge or did you do something about it?

John

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[Dominic]

An Apology To Rhumpole

I have gone and done it again. Your first post seemed provocative but your follow up suggests the opposite and I launched off.

My apologies.

Now to seriously consider your points - as they appear in your follow up.

Britain is unusual in having no (or very little) regulation for private pleasure craft while having quiet strict rules for commercial craft.
(To give you an idea - to take paying passengers in the UK in a typical yacht you need the yacht MCA coded and a Yachtmaster with a commercial endorsement. In the US you just need to take a multiple choice tick test and you are a commercial skipper. In Spain you cannot sail or drive anything without a licence. The equivalent of Day Skipper is a written exam where you will be asked questions such as "Name seven woods that can be used below the waterline.")

The British system is unusual in that the exams take place on a a boat !

In France everything larger that an inflatable beach toy has to be registered and taxed.

Despite the lack of regulation in Britain for private pleasure craft there is a shockingly low casualty rate (YM Sept 2003).

Fortunately we have a rescue service that is free of government interference. (Though it is very embarrassing that yactsmen provide only a fraction of its income while taking a great portion of its time.)

Now onto maintenance of the seas and cleanliness.

My own perception is that people who use the sea are at the forefront of moves to keep it clean (Surfers Against Sewage for example). And while yotties do not dump muck in the water they are not seen as "good users" (although I beleive we are) so there is scope for more PR work here.

But back to your general point.

There is a growing trend towards regulation in everything. Pressure from Brussels, accepted by UK politicians who have never been in a boat (not even a cruise liner) will lead to the UK having to conform with the ex-Fascist countries that still enjoy total regulation.

As you suggest - I think our days are numbered.

Do not forget that this government gave the Americans permission to board and inspect any British flagged vessel within 200 miles of the USA.


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[Rhumpole]

Dominic, thank you so much for taking the time, and the trouble, to reply in such depth to what I have said.

- No, it's not a wind up. I firmly believe that a) Pleasure vessels should be licensed, and that those who are the skippers of them should hold the necessary qualifications to put to sea, and b) That those who operate equipment, for example VHF radio or VHF DSC should hold the necessary licences to do so.

- Your stand point is most commendable, for if you make your living from teaching sailing, your clientel would mushroom overnight!

Rhumpole.

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[Dominic]

The Licence Question

You flatter me.

Normally I take a contrary view in this forum which quite turns them off.

Unusually I am saying what I believe.

Despite the old established truth of "If it ain´t broke don´t fix it". I can see a pressure coming from outside the UK to "conform" and regulate that which has happily existed without regulation.

As an almost relevant aside - I had an MP sailing with me (member of parliament - I would never allow a military policeman on my yachts - but that is another story) who explained to me how it came about that it is now illegal to sell bananas by the pound rather than by the kilogram. He told me it got pushed through the House late at night with only a half dozen members present who all nodded "Aye" and none chose to question it.
He admitted that he had failed in his duty as a back-bencher to question the government´s actions and thus allowed a nonsensical piece of legislation to pass.

So it will happen with boat licensing.
"An Administrative Order" pushed through by Sir Humphrey.

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[musicman]

We do pay taxes some way or another, for example through the VAT on various things you want in your boat. And who would I pay tax to if i was sailing in the middle of the persian gulf? Saudi Arabia? As for liscencing, someone who had just gone out and bought a £1,000,000 boat with no experience with sailing or motoring whatsoever can be a risk to himself and others. HOWEVER, the system as it is now, is good. If you want to learn how to do it properly (and save your boat), you can (day skipper course etc...), and if you seriously dont want to take a risk of not knowing what to do, you would take up the task of getting the necessary knowledge yourself. It doesn't need to be government enforced.

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[BobE]

Hey Moose,
Things must be changing... I just looked at your profile and you are a "Mobo"... And I AGREE with you !!!!!!
I guess we really should not even discuss tax on boats tho' or some creep in whitehell (sry hall) will read our posts and think 'is a good idea..
(Must admit there's a nice guy on a sunseeker who often catches me when I balls up coming into my pontoon mooring solo in my little old Sadler 32)
Keep up the rebellion.. I guess we won't win.. but it's worth trying..
and
Don't let ANY of the ba....ds grind you down...
Cheers Bob E...

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[boatone]

First things first.....

.......much more serious issues to address before they start worrying about a few measly bob they might get from leisure boaters.

Top of my priority list for licensing/taxation and education would be sorting out all the idiots and cyberthugs that cost us all a fortune by fouling up emails and the web with spam and viruses.......(not to mention silly posts on the forum /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif)

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[FWB]

The comment made about not many yachties contributing to the RNLI is I think valid and important. We have to pay to have a VHF set on board and we all have their disc stuck on our boats. I would be proud to have a disc on my boat which proved I had paid money to the RNLI. Can we have a campain to have COMPULSORY RNLI MEMBERSHIP ??? Now that would be a fair tax.

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[oldharry]

The only thing licensing raises is money for the government. It does nothing for standards.

Compare the abuse of the 'licensed' VHF marine bands with the 'free' CB bands (if you can understand their jargon!) . CB generally is the better disciplined of the two!



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[Capt_Marlinspike]

The road fund license for cars is theoretically for the cost of building and maintaining the roads. What would a similar tax on boats be for, the maintenance of the sea?


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[dralex]

As a member of the RNLI, you can get a nice Offshore Sticker every year, just to prove you've paid your dues. It would be interesting to know waht proportion of boating people subscribe. I feel it's a small price to pay for the service they provide. Unfortunately, if it was made compulsary, that would mean the RNLI had been taken over by HM Gov or another agency and so would start to suffer like other public services. At present, it is a well organised charity which is very well off. I don;t care if they've spent money on a lovely new training centre- they raised the cash.

<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now./forums/images/icons/wink.gif