License for Water Scooters. Thin end of the wedge?

[SaltyC]

I am not a lover of the water scooter and the people who use them (Yes old biased Fogie) sailing out of South Shields sailing club many years ago, all was well and quiet, DFDS ferries and wash in shallow water was interesting in dinghies but a nautical hazard. Saturday afternoon 'the Scooters' arrived towed by 4*4 'American trucks' blocking slipway and causing chaos. Once on the water - Oh Dear! absolute chaos.

Fast forward a decade plus, taking Grandchildren to School, along comes a parent, whizzing along the pavement on an electric scooter (unlicensed), child stood on board, scattering parents and children into the road. Who is more dangerous? Who should be licenced?

We (The UK) allegedly have less accidents at sea with no requirement for 'licences' than the continent who do. So is education the way forward? You cannot eliminate the idiots - they have been too well educated. The consequences of licencing are 'We need an Agency to Administer' Employ numpties that do not understand (DEFRA / MCA we cannot maintain boats - just PAY) they need more Numpties to increase their grade and salary, taxes go up, the non productive state sector increases.

It is my opinion that introducing compulsory licences will kill the industry, my children learnt in Mirror Dinghies, progressed to performance dinghies. They learnt navigation when on a Yacht, they attempted unsuccessfully to convert me to the 'computer says ( Chart Plotter)' but learnt the basics. I would trust them more than many certificate holding zero to heroes, the boat 'talks to them'

Regulation by beaurocratic numpties with no understanding is a costly dead end. Typical public sector, we need to do something, we have done something, we have done our job - back slaps all round. See MGN's from 2 years ago, if you g aground in soft mud (East Coast Sailors beware) you have to pay to haul out and inspect.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Luminescent, I don't recall suggesting cruising yachts doing 30knots , but I was asking where you draw the lines for licensing. My 25' Sadler at 5 knots could easily injure someone on a dinghy or even someone on another yacht if sailed 'without due care and attention, so speed is one criteria, but as soon as officialdom gets involved it won't be the only one.

 

[lustyd]

In 1930, before the introduction of driving licenses and with roughly 1m cars in use, 7,805 people were killed on UK roads.

In 2019, it was 38m cars and 1,870 people killed.

Probably true, but the number of accidents is higher than ever, cars are much safer. You're right though, with 38M cars it does make sense to insist on licensing and taxing them. With probably 1000 PWCs and maybe 3 incidents a year?
Bear in mind it already costs £35 to register on the SSR which has almost no purpose. If we make it mandatory that'll surely increase to fund the beaurocrats. Mandatory insurance is next to pay for the additional lawyers engaged in ambulance chasing. Naturally the cost of insurance will also rise. The RYA as the defacto training organisation in the UK will be appointed to look after training which, once mandatory, will increase in price. A minimum age will obviously be required just as for cars since underage people cannot be held liable, and so regrettably those under the age of 16, possibly 18, will no longer be allowed on the water in charge of anything more dangerous than a lilo. And then we'll ban lilos because more people get in trouble on lilos per year than on PWCs.
Or we just keep the perfectly acceptable status quo and accept that other people are allowed to enjoy their lives. Which they are (at least until Borris makes his next speech).

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

Agree, Jet-Skis should require operator's licence.

 

[Boathook]

Probably true, but the number of accidents is higher than ever, cars are much safer. You're right though, with 38M cars it does make sense to insist on licensing and taxing them. With probably 1000 PWCs and maybe 3 incidents a year?
Bear in mind it already costs £35 to register on the SSR which has almost no purpose. If we make it mandatory that'll surely increase to fund the beaurocrats. Mandatory insurance is next to pay for the additional lawyers engaged in ambulance chasing. Naturally the cost of insurance will also rise. The RYA as the defacto training organisation in the UK will be appointed to look after training which, once mandatory, will increase in price. A minimum age will obviously be required just as for cars since underage people cannot be held liable, and so regrettably those under the age of 16, possibly 18, will no longer be allowed on the water in charge of anything more dangerous than a lilo. And then we'll ban lilos because more people get in trouble on lilos per year than on PWCs.
Or we just keep the perfectly acceptable status quo and accept that other people are allowed to enjoy their lives. Which they are (at least until Borris makes his next speech).

I thought that the SSR was only bought in to try and keep Europe happy as they want all boats to a registration number. You cant really have a simpler document though maybe as it is all on line? it should be free like the VHF, radar, etc, licence is at present.

 

[pvb]

I don't think licensing of PWCs is a new thing. The Crouch Harbour Authority, which looks after a lot of the waters favoured by the Essex Navy, has a well-defined policy for PWCs. They all have be licensed (£180 a year) and from this year any new applicants applying for a PWC licence are required to provide proof that they have attended an RYA PWC Training Course. Licence holders need to show a minimum third party insurance cover of £2 million. There's also a minimum age of 18. And of course there are speed limits in various areas, and the CHA launch can target offenders, who face fines up to £2500. Of course, the CHA patrols can't be everywhere all the time, but I do think they've set out a reasonable plan for tackling errant PWC users.

 

[STATUE]

MP calls for licence law for sea scooter users

Looks like MPs are starting to get twitchy about the deaths happening due to out of control scooters.

Hurray at last. I have many stories , but seeing a jetskier in Poole Harbour flip his wake over my grandson when paddle boarding was the limit.

So when they have their registration number on each side in large black letters, I can then send the photo to the Coastguard !

Don't worry yachtsmen, PWC s are not vessels, so it won't affect us.

 

[Biggles Wader]

Beware of mission creep. Once these schemes to license and regulate get started they develop a life of their own and quickly require money. Thus fines and registration fees are needed and that means widening their scope so they can collect more money. Eventually that means all of us.

 

[Concerto]

Hey guys, you should read the original link and there is only mention of registering the PWC, not the driver. It is like registering a car and giving it a registration plate so it can be identified.

Arfon MP Hywel Williams' bill for personal watercraft to need a licence follows calls from Gwynedd Council.
It has its own rules requiring users on its coast to be registered with it.

The link then goes to the Gwynedd Council Maritime for registering every powerboat or ‘jet-ski’ that uses or crosses Gwynedd Council owned, or managed coastal areas.
Maritime
Part of the registration requires proof of £3 million third party insurance.

Nothing has been mentioned about the driver needing any qualifications.

 

[FlyingGoose]

Hey guys, you should read the original link and there is only mention of registering the PWC, not the driver. It is like registering a car and giving it a registration plate so it can be identified.

Arfon MP Hywel Williams' bill for personal watercraft to need a licence follows calls from Gwynedd Council.
It has its own rules requiring users on its coast to be registered with it.

The link then goes to the Gwynedd Council Maritime for registering every powerboat or ‘jet-ski’ that uses or crosses Gwynedd Council owned, or managed coastal areas.
Maritime
Part of the registration requires proof of £3 million third party insurance.

Nothing has been mentioned about the driver needing any qualifications.

And here lies the power a port authority has with the Harbour master.
They have the Legal powers to enforce such an act.
But is it not strange that you would need a licence to use their slip and enter their waters for 5mins to access the open water were you do not need a licence , got to love the British with their rules and paperwork
p.s. I understand the need to control all fast craft in a busy water way or harbour area , but do we need number plates, can the plod not wait beside the big trailer that transported these and nick them as they come out.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Never underestimate the ability for officialdom to ensure mission creep, first they insist on registration plates, then the user will need a license, once sorted out for PWC , power boats next, finally compulsory registration for sail.
Better to toughen up the local by-laws and enforce them, which unfortunately will mean more 'plod' on the water.

 

[stevebrassett]

If you need a license for any sort of watercraft, that would kill off the hire industry.

 

[CLB]

In 1930, before the introduction of driving licenses and with roughly 1m cars in use, 7,805 people were killed on UK roads.

In 2019, it was 38m cars and 1,870 people killed.

That is because with 38M cars on the road most of us can't get up enough speed to kill ourselves

 

[laika]

Hey guys, you should read the original link and there is only mention of registering the PWC, not the driver.

That's not how I read it but I could be wrong:

Mr Williams is using a private members' bill to try to establish a licensing system for drivers of personal watercraft as a licence is not currently required.
[...]
Mr Williams' bill, which is due to be presented on Tuesday, seeks to "establish a system of licensing for operators of jet skis; to create the offence of operating a jet ski without a licence; and for connected purposes".

This follows a Daily Mail campaign:
After three fatalities, parents are in despair over jet ski dangers

The Daily Mail says there were 6 deaths involving jetskis between 2009 and 2019. UK sailing fatalities involving other craft are rare and carbon monoxide poisoning seems to feature more heavily than lack of training. I confess that requiring a licence to ride a high powered PWC *sounds* logical but whilst any death may be a tragedy I'm not sure that the statistics show that nationwide PWC licensing is where government regulation is most needed. The local measures others have described seem eminently sensible.

 

[ip485]

This is a case of be very careful what you wish for.

Lets think what can travel at speed.

Windsurfers
Surf kites
Some catamarans
Zodiacs tenders etc
Speedboats
Some motor boats

You will be left with a very small list of craft that travel at less than say 20 mph, if you arent very careful, and one step from lets licence the lot.

In addition licencing is rarely the answer - the naughty boys will carry on regardless but unlicensed unless there is really going to be some mechanism of enforcement, which of course we will all end up paying for.

Of course you might just apply this to water bikes - but then this would be highly discriminatory and clearly based on some people not liking them and not jsut because they can go fast!

 

[chrishscorp]

The issue does seem to be that they are not covered by the Merchant Shipping Act, surely we could simply add them to that rather than seek to enact new legislation.

I totally agree with other forumites on here that Local councils and harbour authorities should be stepping up to the plate and putting bylaws in place to limit how close in they can use their pwc's, the speed and insist on insurance if that is by local licencsing then so be it.

 

[greeny]

What is so wrong about needing a license that shows you have passed a test and have some level of competence and knowledge to enable you to operate that vehicle safely and not endanger others. Be it a car or a watercraft of any description. And don't whinge about the money. All boat owners are loaded.

 

[lustyd]

What's so wrong with not raising the barrier to entry by introducing needless beuracracy and hoop jumping? If you'd done an RYA course you'd know how ill prepared people are regardless of qualification or paperwork.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

I think the pressure is on for unreasonable behaviour in a lot of things.

My son in law recently had two classic cars vandalised . He happened to have the area covered by CCTV. Within about an hour after posting on the internet he had the names and addresses of two teenage vandals. One father
offered to pay for the damage almost immediately .

We all have video on the phones now and even our own cock up's can end up on youtube. ?

 

[Davy_S]

I think the problem with jetski's is unfortunately, the type of person who may be attracted to them, its a generalization of course, because there are sensible users, but to others they are a motorbike on water, no real knowledge or navigational skills are required, simply twist and go,
I remember before the ban on Windermere, jetski users were chasing ducklings and Cygnets just for the sake of it, they were also tearing in and out of local harbours, so perhaps a stricter registration and displayed numbers would help.