License for Water Scooters. Thin end of the wedge?

[JumbleDuck]

I believe there is a 'no wash' instruction through here, rather than a speed limit. I also note that these channels are subject to strong tides. How fast do they run?

Thanks. I just checked, and you are quite right. I am sure it used to be a 4kt limit, but perhaps that's a dream.

There seem to be two very different sorts of motorboat design around. Some plane properly and, even if big and fast, produce remarkably little wash, what they do produce coming mainly from the prop. The others do a sort of fake plane, squatting down at the stern lifting up at the bow and creating an enormous wash without actually moving terribly fast. I assume they appeal to the mindset which likes big exhaust pipes on debadged poverty-spec cars.

By the way, most motorboats on the Clyde seem to be well and courteously operated.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Momentum wise, like being hit by 4 tons at 0.4375mph. Energy wise, 4 tons at nearly 3mph.

So basically no worse than walking into a wall or lamppost.

 

[CLB]

Thanks. I just checked, and you are quite right. I am sure it used to be a 4kt limit, but perhaps that's a dream.

There seem to be two very different sorts of motorboat design around. Some plane properly and, even if big and fast, produce remarkably little wash, what they do produce coming mainly from the prop. The others do a sort of fake plane, squatting down at the stern lifting up at the bow and creating an enormous wash without actually moving terribly fast. I assume they appeal to the mindset which likes big exhaust pipes on debadged poverty-spec cars.

By the way, most motorboats n the Clyde seem to be well and courteously operated.

All motorboats are capable of producing bigger wakes going at certain slower speeds than when they are properly on the plane. For this reason, no wake zones are better at protecting property and coastline than speed limits.

A good example is Portsmouth Harbour's 10 knot seep limit. Go through there at 10 knots in a 40ft flybridge boat and the wake will be huge, but the person producing it is operating within the harbour rules.

Then there is the inability on most MoBos to accurately record speed through the water, which is what speed limits should be in, if the object is wash reduction. Paddle wheels are usually not reliable on fast boats across the full speed spectrum. You can calibrate for fast or slow speed, or somewhere midway, but whatever you choose they will often be quite inaccurate at other speeds.

Add to this that authorities can only accurately measure a boat at speed over the ground, and suddenly tides can play a big part in wash creation.

If, for example, there is a 6 knot tide flowing through your narrows, a Mobo could be doing 4 knots over the ground, which most would accept is a sensible speed, but producing the huge wake that 10 knots through the water creates. The bow will also be pointing at the sky like you mention. I guess a yacht would simply passage plan around this, as their ability to overcome a 6 knot tide is poor to non-existent. A MoBo will, rightly or wrongly, just add more power.

My point is that often the 'Twonk' will be trying to do the right thing, but getting it wrong. Doesn't mean its intentional. Just poor planning and awareness that will hopefully come with experience.

Often in these situations, the least wash will be produced by going faster and staying on the plane, but the rules don't allow for that and many non MoBoers simply associate speed with wash and get upset if you try.

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

GPS speedos?

So, 4 tons at walking pace, approx double it if a head on collision with a pedestrian. What is it at 15, 20 mph please, which is what they do?

Some are doing up to 60mph.

 

[JumbleDuck]

My point is that often the 'Twonk' will be trying to do the right thing, but getting it wrong. Doesn't mean its intentional. Just poor planning and awareness that will hopefully come with experience.

I appreciate the difficulties, but I think the twonks are actually twonks. Most motorboaters, as I wrote, are absolutely fine there.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

GPS speedos?

So, 4 tons at walking pace, approx double it if a head on collision with a pedestrian. What is it at 15, 20 mph please, which is what they do?

You've lost me. I just did your initial maths to point out that it's not much like 4 tons.

14 stone at 20mph is an intimidating quantity from any pedestrian's pov.

 

[greeny]

So basically no worse than walking into a wall or lamppost.

Except that I have the choice whether I walk into a lampost or not. I don't have that choice when an electric scooter hits me.
4 tons at 3mph is a lot of force. Trying standing against a wall and being hit by that force. I think you may be a bit slimmer after that experience. 4 tons at 3mph takes a lot of stopping. Probably irrelevant in the context of scooters any way. I just don't fancy being hit by one full stop.

 

[SaltyC]

And there, laddies & gentlemen, is England in 2020 defined.

The harbourmaster says, "it's not my job, it in open waters".
The coast guard says, "it's not my job, it's the local authority's".
The police say, "it's not our job, it's an entirely civil matter".
The local authority says, "it's not our job, it's on private land".
The private land owner says, "ما المقصود بالمركبة المائية الشخصية؟".

AAAh - Public Sector pass the buck. Not my job, pay my salary and a gold plated pension for my incompetence.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Except that I have the choice whether I walk into a lampost or not. I don't have that choice when an electric scooter hits me.
4 tons at 3mph is a lot of force. Trying standing against a wall and being hit by that force. I think you may be a bit slimmer after that experience. 4 tons at 3mph takes a lot of stopping. Probably irrelevant in the context of scooters any way. I just don't fancy being hit by one full stop.

This is all ridiculous thread drift, but 4 tons at 3mph isn't a force (mass x velocity is momentum). If you were hit by the steel bumper of a loaded Transit at 3mph it wouldn't hurt much, as long as it was stopping or you then got out of its way. The 14 stone man would hurt at 20mph - against a wall or otherwise, and using the same pro rating, a .22 bullet at 990mph would hurt a lot more. All have the same amount of energy.

It's acceleration multiplied by mass that makes force. Hence soft bumpers and airbags.

 

[greeny]

This is all ridiculous thread drift, but 4 tons at 3mph isn't a force (mass x velocity is momentum). If you were hit by the steel bumper of a loaded Transit at 3mph it wouldn't hurt much, as long as it was stopping or you then got out of its way. The 14 stone man would hurt at 20mph - against a wall or otherwise, and using the same pro rating, a .22 bullet at 990mph would hurt a lot more. All have the same amount of energy.

It's acceleration multiplied by mass that makes force. Hence soft bumpers and airbags.

You're correct in what you say. Ridiculous thread drift. But at least there's a connection to the original post, licensing.

 

[NotBirdseye]

AAAh - Public Sector pass the buck. Not my job, pay my salary and a gold plated pension for my incompetence.

Not so gold plated.

 

[DownWest]

Going back to registration and driving tickets.
France requires all boats ti be registered and display the port and number. Exception for 'beach toys' like wind surfers and paddle boards. My boat was easy to register and free. I don't need a driving license as it is primaraly powered by sail and this is normal up the range. If you drive a power boat over 6hp ( might be 10 now) then a license is required. Plenty of Jetskis about, but I have yet to see someone behaving badly.
In fact, they made registration easier about 14 yrs ago. One does now need insurance.

Seems to work quite well.

 

[Hallberg-Rassy]

You've lost me. I just did your initial maths to point out that it's not much like 4 tons.

14 stone at 20mph is an intimidating quantity from any pedestrian's pov.

Appreciated.

Perhaps I missed out a zero and it's closer to 40 tons. I imagined at as like being hit by two lock forwards running at full speed, not something a kid or little old lady will survive. Of course, depending on things like "skull to skull" or soft impacts.

Jet ski strikes are thankfully few but they should be at the top of the list to electrify for the sake of noise.

 

[CLB]

few but they should be at the top of the list to electrify for the sake of noise.

On that we can agree. In fact, they may be the most simple of boats to electrify and remain usable due to their infrequent use, low weight, and low duration times. If a full charge could give the same blatting speeds for an hour or so, it would be job done for many users.

 

[Bristolfashion]

Except that I have the choice whether I walk into a lampost or not. I don't have that choice when an electric scooter hits me.
4 tons at 3mph is a lot of force. Trying standing against a wall and being hit by that force. I think you may be a bit slimmer after that experience. 4 tons at 3mph takes a lot of stopping. Probably irrelevant in the context of scooters any way. I just don't fancy being hit by one full stop.

I have had a few evenings where I didn't really seem to have a choice of whether I walked into a lamp post ..... ?

 

[Capt Popeye]

AAAh - Public Sector pass the buck. Not my job, pay my salary and a gold plated pension for my incompetence.

No No No not at all; these days responsibility is usually clearly defined and laid out, by Parliament or other governing body; the finance is allowcated according to that thought possible to perform any job /function effectively; so who's and whom is responsible is clearly paid for that responsibility; if thats the law then so be it ?

 

[SaltyC]

No No No not at all; these days responsibility is usually clearly defined and laid out, by Parliament or other governing body; the finance is allocated according to that thought possible to perform any job /function effectively; so who's and whom is responsible is clearly paid for that responsibility; if thats the law then so be it ?

Public sector, jobs worth speak?????