Licence to sail

[bigmart]

I have made my position with regard to licencing very clear on these forums. To sumarise my feelings. I get fed up with people who are prepared to throw my & freedoms, & those of the majority of responsible boaters, away by whingeing about licensing as soon as they see one person who upsets their cosy little life.

1)The facts are clear. England has one of the best safety records in the world.

2)England is one of the least regulated boating communities in the world.

3) Current legislation is sufficient to cover all of the incidents reported on these forums.

Why do you feel the need to risk my freedom because you are unnable to cope with the responsibility of commanding a boat?

Licensing is totaly uneccessary & will only be used by government to institute yet another back door tax on the boating community.

Frankly, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

Martin

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[billmacfarlane]

I admire your faith that somehow a 5 day RYA course will turn what you judge to be an idiot into a paragon of good seamanship. The hard fact is that there isn't a course on this planet that will do that. Much better is that we all make our feelings known on the few occasions we meet bad sailing manners. With regards to judging bad seamanship - none of us are immune to making mistakes. I like the RYA system and considering we're regarded as having one of the best safety records, they must be doing something right. I can't believe I've just stood up for the RYA.

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[Cornishman]

Heavens, Bill. Are you feeling OK?

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[Peppermint]

Re: Nore is mine

But you look at some of these 70mph 15 tonne powerboats with lots of fuel onboard wazzing across the channel shipping lanes and there is some scope for mayhem.

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[Magic_Sailor]

Bill

You can't have read my post. I specifically said "improve, not perfection"

Magic

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[Magic_Sailor]

Coo you aren\'t arf ard

And pointlessly insulting.


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[Magic_Sailor]

You must have read a different post to the one what I wrote. Where did I say that not having a qualification made you a bad sailor. How did I imply that I was "looking down"? Where did I mention selling up and getting a caravan? Methinks you do protest too much.

And yes, I can say it made me a better sailor. I did learn new things - I must have done - it is as you say, part of the learning experience.

I was going to write more Jools but I've just read further into your post and it gets a bit ....well OTT.

Magic



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[Sybarite]

But if people are like this do you think a course will help them?

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[Aja]

What's the point?

I can still learn from other and my own mistakes. The point I would make is that an exam - whether I learn anything or not will not make me more responsible - either to myself and people sailing with me or to other users on the water.

The point of the original post was that we should all be made to take an exam of some type ergo we all become safer/more experienced/more responsible water users.

Crap.

It's not the test. Its the lessons we learn from.

Donald

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[peterb]

I'm one of those people that you obviously consider to be worse than useless; a qualified instructor. I've been instructing since 1979, and a Yachtmaster Instructor since 1982.

Why do I do it? Well, it isn't for money, that's for sure; I instruct for a club and don't get paid. But if I had to say why I do it, I reckon that a large part of the enjoyment comes from watching people improve, not just during a 5-day course but over a series of courses from Competent Crew right up to the Yachtmaster examination.

And that's why I think that some of the people on this board are getting their knickers in a twist over the wrong thing. Jools, for instance, has been sailing since he was three, has lots and lots of experience, and doesn't see how being made to take some sort of qualification will improve his sailing. He may well be right. But many of the people I meet are in their 50s or even older; they have no hope of gaining his experience. What's more, the amount of sailing they can do may be very limited, often only a couple of weeks per year. So, at least in my opinion, their best bet is to go to sea with someone who can give them that experience in an accelerated way. Whether or not they get a certificate at the end of the course is almost incidental; the purpose of the course is to improve their sailing, not to get a piece of paper. The primary purpose of the piece of paper is to help in defining the level of training that they have reached; only to help, because other things like experience also come into play.

No, I don't want to see qualification made compulsory. If you want to know why not, read the RYA booklet on the ICC and look at what is required to pass the test for it. Way down below Day Skipper. But the ICC level is the compulsory level of qualification in most of the countries that require qualification, and once having obtained their legally required qualification very few ever take any more training. In this country, though, most people who step onto the qualification ladder will try to complete the climb; not all will make it, but most will try.

Most of the people here who argue against qualifications seem to be arguing against training - "how can a 5 day course transform an idiot into a competent sailor?". The answer, of course, is that it can't, but that 5 days spent on a formal course is likely to be of much more use than 5 days spent sailing on one's own (or worse, with a family crew who know even less). Yes, of course, it would be better if everyone could start as a cabin boy and work their way up to captain; but that isn't the way that people are going to come into modern yachting. They will be adults, probably with some money to spare (which already says that they're probably not idiots), and probably short of time, either because they have a day job and can only sail in holiday periods or because they are retiring and realise that their remaining years are limited. Try telling a man of 65, just retired, that he needs ten years experience before he should be allowed to sail his own boat!

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[BrendanS]

Eloquently put, and I agree with every word.


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[TheBoatman]

Jesus Bill go easy<s>

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[jimi]

Think there's two types of people who do courses .. 1) people who wish to learn 2)people who wish to get bits of paper. The first will learn, the second will get bits of paper!

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

I agree, and am considering that my girlfriend and I start some training, whether together or separately. I have lots to learn, I grew up with stinkies; sailing to any degree of high competence in gaining the most from the weather is new for me. I am reading I am taking advice I am learning. I agree there is no better way to learn than to get out with someone with high experience. Yes I have sailed dinghies and crewed many yachts, but I would like to know more. This is the first larger raggie I have owned.

But that was not my point....

I argue against <font color=red>compulsory licensing</font color=red>, I do not believe it will alter behaviour on open water. If there is a problem I do not see this as any solution. Those who want to learn and get better will, this thread was started magic sailor who has recently taken and passed his YM. He could probably run rings around my knowledge of sailing and setting the yacht up for maximum drive.

But saying this I in no way cause a danger to other sailors, I know the boats limit, I know my crews limit, though getting better each trip, I know how to get home if something goes wrong or where I can safely run to in emergency, yet I would in magic’s world need a license to prove this, this is what gets my goat.

Yes people do get into the hobby late in life, and bravo that they do not have the stubbornness to say I don't need to learn, I can do this if everyone else can; and undertake training, I have trained to DS theory when I was 16 (and it was free as I was of school age), which taught me great amounts about tides and navigation, I will learn immense amounts when I pick up the training again, to be fair though if I missed the final exam and missed out on a certificate I would be able to live with it, as most would, which is my point, being licensed will not cure a problem of bad manners and bad boat handling, that is just something we will all have to live with.

Unfortunately there is definitely a difference between stinkies and raggies, I am not trying to turn a whole group of water users against me here, but it is all to do with accessibility, anyone can go buy a 30ft 35kt plus speed boat launch and go. To a novice looking on a sailboat with all the ropes and gear going back and fourth it must be very daunting to say the least. I am not tarring all motor boat owners with the same brush, hell, look at happy1, no one I know could ever be that safety conscious and making sure he is fully equipped in knowledge before he goes out, but I am afraid he maybe the minority.

This is where the trade needs to come in, when the have sold the newbie couple their first 30kt gleaming and shining boat he should take the time to spend a few days getting them around the boat, after sails if you like, encourage them to train, read whatever.

I was lucky, but no luckier than your children will be if you get into boating a bit later, or your grandchildren. To be honest my family name got me crewing on boats before I did, I am thankful for that, but 50% was me hanging around the sailing club until someone got so annoyed they took me out just to shut me up. Working on trawlers was just something I did, it started like most kids start paper rounds, it was my weekend and holiday job until I left college and went full time for two years. I did not feel lucky at the time.

Sorry to rant on, I just need to make clear my opposition is to compulsory licensing not training.

No offence meant to anybody reading.


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[TheBoatman]

Well put.
I'm a RYA instructor to and like you do not get paid. I do it to help others, to see the look on their faces when they get someting right that only a few hours ago they thought they couldn't do?


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[BrendanS]

I'm too tired to take all your points one at a time. So, a quick(ish) response.

There are many people on these forums who come from military, mountain rescue, flying, or other backgrounds, where risk assesment, training, and navigation are second nature.....don't confuse stinkies and raggies as being different species.

I'm a stinkie... I'm doing YM theory because I think it can teach me something. The secondary port tide calculations are tough, as are lights and signals.

The navigation part sucks. It's so far behind aeronautical navigation that it's almost prehistoric. Before anyone starts yelling about planes having advanced electronics I'd point out that I'm qualified on hang gliders and gliders as well as powered, from the 'seat of the pants' days. If you want an understanding of winds that will stand you in good as a sailor, try hang gliding, it's 3 dimensional, and pretty unforgiving, as if you don't get it quite right, you don't end up on a bank grounded, you crash into the ground with nowhere to land.

The aero equivalent of a Portland plotter has several concentric dials which slide up and down the plotter, allowing you to perform slide rule calculations of 'tide' and 'wind' vectors, and plot almost directly to the chart. Planes go too fast to spend time doing marine calculations. And they use electronics in full. None of the prejudices we see here (but the pilots can perform 'real' navigation without electronics if it fails, without stopping to think, again, little time to think)

OK, you've moved over to sail powered boats, but there are a huge number of stinkies who have real life experience of many forms of experience of navigation, rules, safety etc.. You say you're not trying to offend anyone, but the prejudice is quite clear.

Your post more than any other has started to push me towards the compulsory training camp. I love my boating,and don't want to see training introduced, but see idiots out there. In the aeronautical world, you still see the odd idiot, but their general skill level is so much higher.

Take hang gliding. Supposedly a dangerous sport. It's so safe that it's the only aviation in the world not regulated by FAA or CAA. The training is what makes it that way, together with a self regulating attitude.. The people in the sport take the training, and the self regulation, as the best way of not having the sport regulated off the planet. Any idiots get taken aside and are 'spoken' to.

Urrgh! I could go on for hours.



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[BrianJ]

Three little words have made a big difference to OZ sailing
....Duty of Care.....
boy they mean a lot and can cause all sorts of headaches if you dont comply and make your yacht/ power boat safe for crew etc...
Think about it.
BrianJ

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[Violetta]

OK, when.....

I'm willing to be convinced about this if and when I see some evidence that the enormous costs, bureaucracy (see PBO Crosstalk this month) and loss of freedom would be justified by proven benefits. Not small benefits - the cost would not be not small, after all. Regulation, registration, training, exemptions, assessment, monitoring, policing, endorsements, sanctions.....think of it! A juggernaut.

People who choose to get training are a very different kettle of fish from those who are forced into it. You can teach skills, yes, but attitudes are very hard to change and little is retained anyway unless it's done voluntarily.


The RNLI had to take out of the seacheck scheme the "gold, silver, bronze" stickers. People were borrowing stuff to get a gold...!!! (If you see my drift)

We have a long history of doing things "because they seem like a good idea" and not because we know they will have the desired effect. But once committed, we never seem to go back (unless there's no money in it and they can be dropped quietly without losing too much face) But there's money galore in this one.

So, before we take the plunge, let's see the evidence, this once, at least.


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[bigmart]

Re: Coo you aren\'t arf ard

No I'm not hard. I'm just fed up with people who rush to legislation to protect them from the big wide world. Have you ever thought of the problems it would cause, the thousands of everyday boaters who do no harm, to police the kind of society that would result from the restictions you advocate.

OK so some guy annoyed you. Deal with it like an adult. Stop whining.

Martin

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[spark]

Re: What about power boats ?

No. Licencing is irrelevant. I might advocate compulsory periodic safety training but only if the statistics indicated that life and limb were being lost through ignorance of good practice.

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