Licence to sail

[Magic_Sailor]

I was discussing sailing with a ladyfriend yesterday, who is not a sailor. We (SWMBO & I before you get the wrong idea) hadn't seen her for some time and she was interested by what we'd been doing in the sailing line. We were telling her about the various sailing courses we'd undertaken (DS and YM). As I described these particular experiences I realised that they have definitely made me a better and more confident sailor. (Christ he must have been bad I hear you say - virtually).

Anyway….some may remember that I had a bit of a moan about one of our stinkier colleagues in Chich a week or so ago and others followed up with similar stories - not just about stinkies but including raggies as well by God. And, today I note an article in PBO by James Stevens of the RYA talking in the main about accidents at sea and saying that;

"currently good sense prevails. Our legislators are keeping their distance etc etc….[keeping] a policy of not allowing the skipper to shed their responsibility etc etc".

But it's not just about tragic accidents which are few and far between is it. And, I don't see how taking some sort of "sailing exam" will absolve us of responsibility - which is his implication. I've come to the conclusion that's wrong. There are just too many plonkers around. Now I know the driving test hasn't cured the world of plonkers on the road - but it has improved our safety as anyone whose driven in countries that don't observe (carefully chosen word) this rule will know. How many of us would want to go back to a situation where no one takes a driving test?

If everyone were made to take the various courses, building from DS to YM etc, each level allowing a greater freedom then I think in general we'd end up better, more confident, more tolerant and more thoughtful skippers. Why do we baulk at that?

The Chichester chopper will probably only receive a written warning (according to Chich Harbourmaster). Some sort of licence however could mean say points, higher insurance premiums and maybe loss of that licence - like cars! I defy anybody to say that these sort of penalties don't make them more considerate on the road.

Don't forget, I'm talking overall improvement, not perfection.

OK - duck!

Magic


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[Badger]

I totally agree. Manners and customs in port is part of the comp crew course and rules of the road speaks for itself. It is definitely going to happen, better to be part of bringing it in in a sensible manner than having it forced on us. I am also fed up of all the idiots out there. This weekend will be a prime example of why we need licensing. Rant over, off to polish my RYA log book.

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[Sybarite]

For goodness sake, you don't need a course to tell what constitutes good manners. It is simple consideration for others and if one stops to think for two seconds and have a titter of wit one ought to know what to do.

The great problem about formalizing things is that you create the data base which then opens up the Pandora's box for all sorts of other taxes and charges.

Have things deteriorated to such an extent over there that you really feel the need for this?

John

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[Aja]

"allowing greater freedom"

So, after 40 years of sailing, I'll still be attached by the painter? Aye right - so....who's going to stop me? Luckily manners and knowledge are two entirely different things.

Dont get me wrong - I've hundreds to learn.

Donald
(no letters after his name)

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[kgi]

After having seen the "standards" of the examiners in some of these sailing schools having a license becomes a tad nebulous..........keith

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[Badger]

Donald, after 40 years of sailing, you will have no problem passing your yachtmaster practical, so what's the problem ?

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[Peppermint]

Sailing is safe and most people carry on with due regard for other water users.

The RYA has a vested interest in the safety = training idea but at the same time it's their duty to promote boating. This leads to a conflict because much of the poor manners we see results from the high density of boats on the water. Much of what we construe as bad behaviour is often inexperience running out of ideas in the face of complex right of way situations.

The way many of us learned by trial and error, sailing with friends and/or family and slowly going further as experience and boat size grew is as valid a way of learning as going on courses.

That being said provided the transition requirements are reasonable, inexpensive and valid I've no personal objection to some sort of compulsory license.

God knows I've got a license for nearly everything else. Something modeled on the motorcycle arrangements might suit. With size and power being related to experience and testing.

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[WayneS]

I have the dubious privilege of mooring very close to a training/charter base in Portsmouth Harbour.

Assuming that the skippers that use these boats are so called "Trained" then I fear the day that we all have to undergo said training. Insurance premiums would go through the roof as a result of all of us becoming arrogant, selfish, uncompromising twits on the water that do not have to obey harbour speed limits, rules of way, use of common sense etc etc etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that training is the cause of this sort of behaviour, but in no way has it improved these folks.

The major requirement for safe boating is common sense. You cannot teach that. It seems that all too often people bluff themselves into believing that they are good boaters by ensuring that they have every qualification going.

Rant over...sorry, shoot me down now.





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[Badger]

But his is where you are wrong. Many people today have never been taught any manners and do not have a titter of wit as you put it. The yob culture is pervasive in the UK like no other country in the world. On a Friday or Saturday night in most provincial UK towns there is about the same level of law and order as there is in Baghdad. You are using self reference criterion and applying it to others.

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[wayneA]

Magic

To continue with your ‘Driving Licence’ analogy, there are still many w****rs on the road who think they own it, even though they have a full driving licence. We will tend to encounter this type of driver more noticeably in areas of greater congestion – inner cities etc.

To me, this is the issue with the Solent - large population of boats on a relatively small amount of water. I think it would be unfair to force legislation, on a national level, for a problem that mainly exists locally around the Solent. I think those who sail in areas with more ‘sea room’, don’t generally encounter these type of issues.

Therefore, is the answer to look at local measures in the Solent, before the regulation of leisure craft as a whole?

Just my £0.02

Cheers

Wayne


<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.</font size=1>

 

[Sailfree]

While I agree with the sentiment I don't agree with the content. As a responsible person I have now attended most courses and passed Yachtmaster with the commercial endorsement. However I also believe I am a responsible driver that in the course of my work completes 40000mls per year. I cannot remember when I last had an accident but I choose to travel at unpopular times when the road is empty and regularly speed. I keep a lookout for police cars and cameras as neither is concerned with how safe I am speeding they just want a sucessful prosecution. I believe this now another form of taxation. With this attitude to driving does anyone foolishly believe the enforcement of any Marine Laws including qualifications will not also become a mindlessly enforcement system with the emphasis on fines and revenue - without any relevance to actual risk or safety at sea. If qualifications are compulsary will trainee skippers need L plates? What would be the fine for not displaying them. At present once I am forced to give up my job due to pasing one camera too many at 03.00 at least I can at least go sailing for 6 months free of the mindless enforcement of rules. Lets support the RYA's continued effort to keep sailing qualifications voluntary and only accept government interference when there is a real risk. Thank God the government saves both the public at large and me (from myself) by having Laws and fines for supermarkets if they sell a bottle of wine with my weeks shopping when I do it after midnight. Lets at least be able to escape this c**p when we are on the water.

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[Badger]

Flying and Sailing

I agree with much of what you have said, which is why I think the driving licence analogy is not particularly valid. I think a much more valid comparison is the private pilots licence. There are huge common areas, airmanship, collision regs. radio procedure, dynamics of flight, navigation. Or do people think anyone should be able to get in a light aircraft and take off with no licence ?

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

<font color=blue>We were telling her about the various sailing courses we'd undertaken (DS and YM). As I described these particular experiences I realised that they have definitely made me a better and more confident sailor.</font color=blue>

Confidence maybe, misplaced confidence maybe, but better, sorry do not agree, time served makes you better, applying what you have learnt and working through why this way is better than that way definitely. Can I not self learn all of what you paid to keep RYA committees going with?

Why is it everyone who does such courses then looks down on us that have not with disdain and pity at our total lack of sea skills. I have been around boats since I was about 3 years old, I worked in the family trawling industry, then ran a dive charter vessel, was on an offshore lifeboat, worked offshore trawlers, sailed, canoed, white water rafted on and on and on, all without qualification, yet I am alive, I make mistakes, but you think I should sell my boat and start caravanning?

<font color=blue>But it's not just about tragic accidents which are few and far between is it. And, I don't see how taking some sort of "sailing exam" will absolve us of responsibility - which is his implication. I've come to the conclusion that's wrong.</font color=blue>

<font color=blue>If everyone were made to take the various courses, building from DS to YM etc, each level allowing a greater freedom then I think in general we'd end up better, more confident, more tolerant and more thoughtful skippers. Why do we baulk at that?</font color=blue>

freedom, excuse me, I shall say it again, FREEDOM!, look here, I was born a free man, I will die a free man, I DO NOT belong to Great Britain PLC, I only choose to live here, try to understand, this is supposed to be a democratic country. I do as I wish, I harm no-one, I am not a ‘criminal’, though I do enjoy a cig and alcohol, nearly criminal in this tabloid ethics world. Yet you deem that I should have this freedom taken away, <font color=red>did I do something wrong?</font color=red>

<font color=blue>The Chichester chopper will probably only receive a written warning (according to Chich Harbourmaster). Some sort of licence however could mean say points, higher insurance premiums and maybe loss of that licence - like cars! I defy anybody to say that these sort of penalties don't make them more considerate on the road.</font color=blue>

Points, are you mad or just so damn perfect, can you not hear yourself when you write this drivel, this is not a personal attack, take it like a heated debate sitting in the sailing club having a drink. We sail to get away from this crap, if it bothers you so much sail somewhere quieter, feel happy in yourself that you have ‘chosen’ to increase your personal skills and sit exams, but please stop inflicting your pain on everyone else. It is like when I am at a party and some couple who are on their first night out after their first child starts asking us when are we going to start a family, shortly afterwards telling us they have not slept for weeks, are arguing constantly and are stone cold broke, mmmm, show me to the bedroom.

Please don’t be offended, I am knocking your viewpoint, not you, but lets just stop being so silly, freedom to use my property on the open sea is not a priviledge it is my right, if you choose to protest against my right because you chose to sit mind numbingly in a classroom don’t expect me to stay quiet.


<font color=blue>OK - duck!

Magic</font color=blue>

I am not even started yet!

Have a great Easter and fairwinds to all.


<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue> Julian </font color=blue>

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[bob_tyler]

Re: Flying and Sailing

See the back page of PBO May issue.

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Re: Flying and Sailing

<font color=blue>Or do people think anyone should be able to get in a light aircraft and take off with no licence ?</font color=blue>

My boat is hardly likely to crash and explode into a busy shopping centre or housing estate.

Apples and oranges

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue> Julian </font color=blue>

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[Badger]

Re: Flying and Sailing

Dont keep us in suspense, what does it say ?

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[Badger]

With all your experience gained the hard way since you were 3 years old, why would you object to passing what for you should be a very simple test of your competence ? It's like the people who howl blue murder about their civil rights when there is talk about bringing in ID cards. What's the big deal ?

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Big brother and civil ownership for one, I carry an ID card, nothing to hide, but what we have here is rules for rules sake. As said earlier in the thread it will lead to fines, prosecution, for what, sailing with only experience, no RYA given from heaven certificates to say I can do this.

Show me where compulsory licensing will help stop the behaviour being described. The RYA courses teach navigation, they do not as stated teach manners, that is something you should have gained from your parents I believe.

This is turning to a nanny state, if someone breaks col regs and causes an accident there are already laws to deal with it, holding an RYA cert IMHO is not going to make even a tiny difference to this type of behaviour.

Seriously, move out of the Solent, even off the south coast and start to enjoy sailing again, you will soon forget about this licensing nonsense.


<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue> Julian </font color=blue>

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[spark]

I have had a driving licence for 24 years. Sometimes I drive carefully, within the letter of the law. Sometimes I drive atrociously, along with a high proportion of the licenced population. My Granny drove beautifully, without accident or incident, for over 60 years. She had a licence but had never had any training, never passed a driving test.

Training and testing do not guarantee competence or security. I have sailed with YMs with commercial endorsements who were excellent seamen. I have sailed with others who were astonishingly incompetent. The same goes for skippers with no qualifications.

Where is the need for regulation? Do the death and injury statistics warrant the burden of licencing and enforcement?

Driving a non-planing boat is not a high risk activity. The person that you are most likely to hurt/kill is yourself and your crew, and you have to be very stupid and/or unlucky to do so.

I suggest that we all have an unalienable right to take responsibility for ourselves when we undertake any activity that is unlikely to endanger any third party. There is no case for interference from any licensing authority.

There may be a valid argument for mandatory 3rd party insurance for boat operators to cover the very unlikely occasion when life or limb are lost and the more likely occasion when property (e.g. other boats) are damaged. The insurance companies could then take into account the experience and qualifications of the individual and adjust the premium accordingly. I would hope that they would look more favourably on someone like Jools than a week-end sailor with 3 seasons' Solent experience and a commercially-endorsed YM certificate.

Training, formal and informal, should be encouraged. Going sailing on other people's boats should be encouraged. Discussion on best practice should be encouraged. The exercise of good manners should be encouraged.

Certificates of competence and licencing (for private boat operators) should be discouraged because, at best they are irrelevant to the promotion of safety at sea and at worst they lull inexperienced skippers into a false and potentially dangerous sense of security.

Going to sea in boats is a continuous learning experience that has nothing to do with passing exams.


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[Badger]

What about power boats ?

you say <Driving a non-planing boat is not a high risk activity>. does this mean you would advocate licensing for power boat owners ?

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