LIBS e-borders update no. 965 "How can it be voluntary"

Isn't the real concern that all this is just a first step? It is going to get worse and it is going to get more restrictive because that's the way these things go. Voluntary inevitably leads to compulsory and the powers that be can usually assemble enough favourable statistics to justify such a move. For example, how long do you think the UK will remain exempt from the red diesel in a can ban? Once the legislative juggernaut starts to roll, there is no stopping it. The only answer is to stop what we might consider unfair legislation dead in its tracks before it makes its way in any shape or form on to the statute books. Any compromise at all leaves the door wide open for the process to ramp up. In the case of E-Borders, we are too late.
 
what's the problem?

First define the problem, then come up with a cost effective solution.
How many miscreants were caught last year? A few smugglers.
What has Eborders got to do with smuggling?
What is the cost, in £ per year of operating one Borders Cutter? Many millions I am sure, but we have a right to know.
Actually I am so pissed by the deterioration of civil libertys on the UK I have closed two businesses and moved to the Schengen area. No passports between Sicilly and Oslo!
 
Guapa said:
According to the Daily Mail those places (and anywhere in between) are a haven for terrorists. :rolleyes:
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When I was crossing from Cuba to Key West a US coastguard cutter came up on the VHS, although it was out of my site, quoted my lat and long and I responded.
Over the VHF they asked for the names of those on board, their passport numbers, Ships registration and last port. Then they wished me 'fair winds'.

How is it in today's age with passport numbers easily check-able any boat needs to be boarded if it is UK registered?
 
PawPaw said:
When I was crossing from Cuba to Key West a US coastguard cutter came up on the VHS, although it was out of my site, quoted my lat and long and I responded.
Over the VHF they asked for the names of those on board, their passport numbers, Ships registration and last port. Then they wished me 'fair winds'.

How is it in today's age with passport numbers easily check-able any boat needs to be boarded if it is UK registered?
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Don't think I would want to broadcast such personal information over the airways for all to hear.
 
NormanS said:
Surely taken care of by their using a Duplex VHF channel.
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I think mobile phone is the only secure way. Even duplex is open for all to hear if they have the wherewithall to do it. If you are say in between Calais and Dover, a receiver on land at Calais could pick up the duplex channel as it is not encrypted.
 
Searush said:
:confused:FFS! Why?

Names, passport numbers, boat details & last port seem pretty innocuous to me. Useful for plod check but for what nefarious purpose I cannot imagine.

Please enlighten me of your fears so I can be frightened too.:rolleyes:
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The airlines (the only people to whom eborders applies as yet) are expected to provide anything up to eighty-odd pieces of information about each traveller. Admittedly some of that information only applies to children travelling alone, but for adults they include address, place and date of birth, email address, travel itinerary, and credit card number -- pretty much a complete identity theft kit.

NormanS said:
Surely taken care of by their using a Duplex VHF channel.
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Its not at all difficult or unusual to buy a radio with the duplex channels reversed (most marinas have several of them!) and you can pick up receive-only scanners that will receive whichever end of a duplex channel you choose on almost any high street.
 
Searush said:
:confused:FFS! Why?

Names, passport numbers, boat details & last port seem pretty innocuous to me. Useful for plod check but for what nefarious purpose I cannot imagine.

Please enlighten me of your fears so I can be frightened too.:rolleyes:
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Not an expert in using other people's personal details, but we are always being told to be concerned with leaving personal information lying around. Identity theft is huge and growing, so it is surely better to make it harder for them.
 
"If you are say in between Calais and Dover, a receiver on land at Calais could pick up the duplex channel as it is not encrypted."

Its not just the channel - it has to work all around the coast of the UK and also well out to sea.
 
Searush said:
:confused:FFS! Why?

Names, passport numbers, boat details & last port seem pretty innocuous to me. Useful for plod check but for what nefarious purpose I cannot imagine.

Please enlighten me of your fears so I can be frightened too.:rolleyes:
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Also, can yo imagine the situation where they find one boat come out of Calais, yacht Searush, with 3 people on board and give them all the passport numbers etc. they want.

A month later a yacht leaves Calais called Searush, 3 people on board with the same names and passport numbers - they've nicked the information from the VHF so got past the first line of defence. They could probably even put in a passage plan on the new fancy software to make it look credible.
 
Seems confusing....

If you can buy a ticket on a train, drive, fly or in general pay a cheap fare and get there... then why hire a huge bureaucracy to "check" things???

I guess I have seen too many movies - or actually use a brain..... this scheme seems to hire a lot of people, spend a lot of money - and will have just what to show for it? based on what demonstrated need?

Mind you.... It is not hard to ask questions when there are probably 20 million people in the US illegally now... and that is in spite of "vigorous" border control...

-jr
 
Pye_End said:
Also, can yo imagine the situation where they find one boat come out of Calais, yacht Searush, with 3 people on board and give them all the passport numbers etc. they want.

A month later a yacht leaves Calais called Searush, 3 people on board with the same names and passport numbers - they've nicked the information from the VHF so got past the first line of defence. They could probably even put in a passage plan on the new fancy software to make it look credible.
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There are many discrepancies that can be checked that will draw attention to a simple attempt like that. My boat has a call-sign, perhaps MIMSI (?) and is registered under the CG66 scheme so the type, colour & make can be checked against records & even a picture. OK, so it could be cloned with a fair amount of effort, but not from just a few fragments of info like names & passport numbers. But, even if they are successful, it won't affect me unless they create suspicions that are followed up on later - & I can show that my boat wasn't in those locations at that time.

MUCH less of an issue in my mind than getting 12 months in prison for not giving the info as required or changing my passage plan without prior notice.
 
Searush said:
There are many discrepancies that can be checked that will draw attention to a simple attempt like that. My boat has a call-sign, perhaps MIMSI (?) and is registered under the CG66 scheme so the type, colour & make can be checked against records & even a picture. OK, so it could be cloned with a fair amount of effort, but not from just a few fragments of info like names & passport numbers. But, even if they are successful, it won't affect me unless they create suspicions that are followed up on later - & I can show that my boat wasn't in those locations at that time.

MUCH less of an issue in my mind than getting 12 months in prison for not giving the info as required or changing my passage plan without prior notice.
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I thought the argument that you could 'book in and out' of the UK by simply using the VHF and passing over your details, including passport number.

Where is the eyes on verification in this process? So, just be spouting your details via VHF is not in any way close to a secure boarder control, but just an information gathering exercise.

Anyone could borrow those details and use them without your knowledge, but not only that a passport number can be used for all sorts of nefarious activities, not least as the final jigsaw piece to complete an ongoing identity theft.

It is not something I would do.

But, lets face it, much of eBorders is about checking on offshore citizens and the 90 day rule and nothing about smuggling, immigration or terrorism. It is part of the tax gatherting apparatus.
 
Dear Major,
You need to read a few posts back to understand this thread. The VHF ID process was carried out in waters between Cuba & USA between UK yacht & US coastguard or border patrol vesssel below the horizon. Some people seem to have assumed it was in UK waters. AFAIK VHF e-borders reporting is not acceptable/ available - more's the pity, it would be much simpler to use.
Steve K
ps I'll bet it was a nice day in Catastrophe Towers today.
 
Hello All,

Long time lurker, first time poster. I would like to know how the scheme relates to foreign EU flagged vessels who may pass through UK territorial waters on their way to Ireland for example? As I understand it if your final destination is not in the UK you need not register, or do I have it wrong?
In which case no English flagged boat need worry as the UKBA will be too busy boarding foreign flagged yachts out in the channel for the day who for obvious reasons will not have registered.
Equally if I want to sail from Dublin for a day out and spend time in UK waters am I more likely to be boarded than an English flagged vessel which has not registered on passage from Holyhead?
I will be interested to see how boats from other EU states react to the new regulations

It's very confusing and I realistically cannot see any practical way of effective enforcement.

Brgds
SB03
 
Searush said:
There are many discrepancies that can be checked that will draw attention to a simple attempt like that. My boat has a call-sign, perhaps MIMSI (?) and is registered under the CG66 scheme so the type, colour & make can be checked against records & even a picture. OK, so it could be cloned with a fair amount of effort, but not from just a few fragments of info like names & passport numbers. But, even if they are successful, it won't affect me unless they create suspicions that are followed up on later - & I can show that my boat wasn't in those locations at that time.

MUCH less of an issue in my mind than getting 12 months in prison for not giving the info as required or changing my passage plan without prior notice.
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Ok but how many boats have MMSI (and MMSI can also be cloned), and how many boats are registered under CG66? How many have photos attached? How many CG66 descriptions say 'white hull, white topsides' etc.? Call signs would have to be given over the VHF and therefore in the public domain along with your passport numbers, so no help there. SSR is perhaps useful as it is a visual check on the side of the boat, but if they are that close they may as well come aboard and do the job properly. Perhaps this will lead to compulsory registration (no doubt for a fee)?

It may not effect you - in the same way that somebody using your registration plates on their car doesn't - right up to the time when they are done for a parking offence. Even if you suffer no financial loss after the event, it is all hastle. Somebody I know suffered from identity theft a year or so ago, and it was not at all pleasant.

Using VHF to verify that a boat is not full of illegals is not practical - even if you and your boat were genuine, you may have 8 people on board rather than the 4 that you have declared. Face to face boardings is the only way to do it properly.
 
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