LIBS e-borders update no. 965 "How can it be voluntary"

Pye_End said:
Face to face boardings is the only way to do it properly.
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Spot on and with 5 boats to cover the entire UK it cannot be done properly.

Its going to be real fun with boats not even destined for the UK. For example leave Ireland and cruise 1 mile from UK shore - anchor in UK bay does not require registration because nobody has landed and the 'landed' bit is important. It comes from the commercial rules on this.

So, when heading from Eire to the UK you are boarded you can simply state that you have no intention of landing!!! They cannot touch you.
You head toward France and they stop you halfway - you again simply state you are not landing and again they cannot touch you.

The system is totally mad but then they took over the asylum a fair time ago.
 
Gludy said:
Spot on and with 5 boats to cover the entire UK it cannot be done properly.

Its going to be real fun with boats not even destined for the UK. For example leave Ireland and cruise 1 mile from UK shore - anchor in UK bay does not require registration because nobody has landed and the 'landed' bit is important. It comes from the commercial rules on this.

So, when heading from Eire to the UK you are boarded you can simply state that you have no intention of landing!!! They cannot touch you.
You head toward France and they stop you halfway - you again simply state you are not landing and again they cannot touch you.

The system is totally mad but then they took over the asylum a fair time ago.
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Indeed.

My guess is that by threatening 52 weeks in prison and a big fine that most people will not want to take the risk of not complying. If you do land, and say that you have not, you never know who is watching you, and how many cameras you are on!
 
But you get the possible 52 weeks in prison and the fine if you just change port because of weather or equipment problems - at least it seems at their discretion!

There are layers and layers of reason why the system cannot work.

One thing is certain, by diverting resources our borders are less secure than before.
 
Gludy said:
One thing is certain, by diverting resources our borders are less secure than before.
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Than before when? Secure to what purpose?

Securing borders to any reasonable level is nigh on impossible. Even the most totalitarian state fails to stop people and goods from passing through its borders undetected.

The purpose of eBorders is to enable the incumbent Government to counter criticism that they have no border control. Its effectiveness as a border control tool is not important. Look at Hansard and research the origins of eBorders if you want evidence.

Now as a monitoring tool for major airports it is quite cheap and effective. It can be made to work at airports. Applying it elsewhere is foolish, as those trying to implement it are just finding out.

The Coast Guard cutters are a jolly bit of sport. Random searches of a few yachties cannot be an effective method of doing anything other than alienating people. It must be a great thrill to zoom up to an unsuspecting yacht at 2am and bang on the search light. I hope they pick on a Yank who starts shooting.
 
They are pretending to secure borders and spending a load of money with that pretence.
In so doing they are using up resources which could be better used elsewhere whilst fooling the masses that we have effective border control.

No different to Mr Brown and his unelected Mr Mandelson yesterday promising that they will ensure Nestles do not reduce jobs etc - something over which they have no control whatsoever but they wish to look good .... I find their antics amazing.
 
If it's got to happen (and I'm not sure if it really will,) should we/they not be looking at existing resource rather than adding to the morass?
We have CG66, and if you're going far enough to crash a border, you should probably be on the list. You can update your entry online, so -
A page could be added to create a list of crewmembers details, each one allocated a number.. Make sure you have all possible listed before leaving - if they are regulars they only need to be added once.
We have ATIS, although UK ofcom has rejected it.
If called on VHF by the E-force, the ATIS identifies the boat, points to the relevant CG66 entry, and you give the ID numbers of your crew.
(this is how the lifeboats do it from their own crewlist - listen on chan0 sometime)
If the E-force are not going to board you to match face to photo, that's as good a way as any.
Assuming of course, that E-force (sinister hand) can access the files of CG (dexter hand.)
 
Whilst all that could be done - would it make our borders safer? No.

It would also mean that every boat traveling outside the UK has to have an AIS transponder and you would still have all the problems of logging onto the internet , changing destinations, crew not turning up as you have to leave to catch the tide etc.
 
Billjratt said:
A page could be added to create a list of crewmembers details, each one allocated a number.. Make sure you have all possible listed before leaving - if they are regulars they only need to be added once.
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That is not going to happen as one of the aims of eBorders is to track non taxpayers who exceed their 90 day maximum.

"The new e borders programme to be introduced over the next couple of years looks to ensure that information on anyone travelling to or from the UK is retained by the UK border authorities. This will be shared with the Police and HMRC.

The key purpose of this for immigration purposes to ensure that the UK government knows who is actually in the UK, however it will have an ancillary benefit in that it will allow HMRC to keep a track on anyone visiting or leaving the UK for residence purposes.

Under the current rules if you've left the UK you need to ensure that your return visits are less than 90 days per tax year (on average) and that you don't spend more than 183 days in any one tax year. If you exceed these limits you could be classed as remaining UK resident. " From Here (Clicky)
 
I think HMRC may be the better reason behind it but what if you choose to enter and leave the UK by choosing to walk across the Irish border each time? Seems you could then fiddle your 90 day allowance.
 
Doesn't work unless you live in NI. As soon as your're on the ferry from NI, you are into the sytem, though you could choose to sail across the Irish Sea. From NI to England.
The other thing is what hours are these guys going to work. First of all, you are not going to do a stop and search in a TSZ, far too dangerous in the channel. You have to get from your quayside to where you are going. Decide on a target and stop 100 metres short. You won't approach too closely, in case you actually do stir up a nest of nasties with automatic rifles and RPG. Then you launch your rib. Cautiously you approach your target and board. Find everthing on board is OK after setting up passport scanner. Thank you skipper, back in the rib and on to the next target. Two hours from start to finish. It's bad enough getting onto a large vessel, at night, but you can bet your bottom dollar they are not going to board a small craft at night. First couple of guys hurt and HSE will stop that. Then it takes several hours to board and check a vessel with Eastern European crew. So you might just do two or three boats a shift at the most and only operating in daylight. They are going to have to put on lot of spin on that to spend a couple of million a year each boat for maybe a thousand boardings. 99.99 of those is going to be a bust. I can think of lots of ways to fool the system. You find a boat called Searush departing for the UK. He's going in the morning. You spread £10 squids worth of Charlie in a locker and a little wiped around the wheel. Wait for him to depart, ring the confidential hotline reporting your suspicions and follow him out, making for an alternative port, so as not to be anywhere near, when the cutter pulls him, tows him back to the UK and spends the next 10 hours pulling his boat apart looking for his stash. Meanwhile you quietly land down the coast unload your dirty bomb into a tranny van and you're in London before you can say salaam sediki pass the cipro. Lets face it the five cutters can't be everywhere.
 
Hmmm, you'd be on my hit list were i not retired

Bobobolinsky said:
Doesn't work unless you live in NI. As soon as your're on the ferry from NI, you are into the sytem, though you could choose to sail across the Irish Sea. From NI to England.
The other thing is what hours are these guys going to work. First of all, you are not going to do a stop and search in a TSZ, far too dangerous in the channel. You have to get from your quayside to where you are going. Decide on a target and stop 100 metres short. You won't approach too closely, in case you actually do stir up a nest of nasties with automatic rifles and RPG. Then you launch your rib. Cautiously you approach your target and board. Find everthing on board is OK after setting up passport scanner. Thank you skipper, back in the rib and on to the next target. Two hours from start to finish. It's bad enough getting onto a large vessel, at night, but you can bet your bottom dollar they are not going to board a small craft at night. First couple of guys hurt and HSE will stop that. Then it takes several hours to board and check a vessel with Eastern European crew. So you might just do two or three boats a shift at the most and only operating in daylight. They are going to have to put on lot of spin on that to spend a couple of million a year each boat for maybe a thousand boardings. 99.99 of those is going to be a bust. I can think of lots of ways to fool the system. You find a boat called Searush departing for the UK. He's going in the morning. You spread £10 squids worth of Charlie in a locker and a little wiped around the wheel. Wait for him to depart, ring the confidential hotline reporting your suspicions and follow him out, making for an alternative port, so as not to be anywhere near, when the cutter pulls him, tows him back to the UK and spends the next 10 hours pulling his boat apart looking for his stash. Meanwhile you quietly land down the coast unload your dirty bomb into a tranny van and you're in London before you can say salaam sediki pass the cipro.

Lets face it the five cutters can't be everywhere.
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That's two of us who know what we are talking about then- oh, and the rummage team with be stuck in an M-way traffic jam trying cover Dover, Marchwood and Falmouth at the same time( all other teams having forced into early retirement to ensure 'year on year cost reductions' in order to deliver SCS bonuses).
 
I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for this one!!

The CAA is, quite rightly, concerned at the possible implications of licencing unmanned aircraft in UK airspace.

Have you any idea just how busy it can be in the air over the UK at any one time (and I'm not talking about Class A airspace - where there be Jumbos).

Tom
 
RichardPerou said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/23/cctv-sky-police-plan-drones
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Given the civil aircraft traffic lanes across the UK skies, plus military exercise areas, I can't see those things being deployed at 20,000ft very often. Interesting that they are not airworthy for UK use. I suspect that is due to the consequences of one suffering a heart attack & dropping out of the sky onto a hospital, school or :D govt office!

And if we remove our dodgers & don't have the name visible, they still have to board to find out who we are. SSR numbers will help - provided crims don't falsify them, - no, I'm sure they wouldn't be that smart :rolleyes:
 
Searush said:
I suspect that is due to the consequences of one suffering a heart attack & dropping out of the sky onto a hospital, school or govt office!
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Interesting that all aircraft crashes seem to result after a "nose dive" and end up "near" a school, hospital, village hall, housing estate etc.

Dontcha just love the media !!

"There's no news in good news"

Tom
 
RichardPerou said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/23/cctv-sky-police-plan-drones
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I would question how often they could see a name on the side of a boat because of the angles involved. Its not like a spotter plane buzzing round you at 200ft photographing you from all angles.

How does it work in cloud? You can cound the number of days with a high or no cloud base since Christmas on one hand.

Also, what happens at night? They might be able to see something with image enhancing (from 20k feet?), but can't see them getting any detail from a boat - eg name; clolour; SSR etc.
 
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