Li and Pb batteries

[AntarcticPilot]

Agreed, they do this on buses in China. Can you imagine trying to get car manufacturers to agree?
VHS And Betamax springs to mind

The vehicle would have to be designed round the concept. It's non trivial - the battery on my ID.3 is a significant proportion of the weight of the car, and is spread over a substantial area. Changing the battery is never going to be in and out in minutes; they're too heavy and bulky.

 

[vyv_cox]

The vehicle would have to be designed round the concept. It's non trivial - the battery on my ID.3 is a significant proportion of the weight of the car, and is spread over a substantial area. Changing the battery is never going to be in and out in minutes; they're too heavy and bulky.

But perfectly possible if designed for it. I can picture a battery tray that could be replaced quickly using a motorised truck. Governments seem to have forced a universal charging plug on mobile phones despite considerable opposition. It's just a matter of scale?.

 

[geem]

The vehicle would have to be designed round the concept. It's non trivial - the battery on my ID.3 is a significant proportion of the weight of the car, and is spread over a substantial area. Changing the battery is never going to be in and out in minutes; they're too heavy and bulky.

The concept would be to install battery under the bonnet. The idea being that its like a cassette. You pull up to a terminal, similar to going to a car wash where sensors tell you when to stop. A robotic arm pulls out the old battery and installs a new one. This is the basic principal that the Chinese buses use.
Can you imagine how hard it would be to get manufacturers to agree to this? It would solve all criticism of electric cars. You would never own a battery. It would be a service charge. You wouldn't even need to get out of the car when swapping batteries. No more waiting 40 mins for a charge. No reduction in electric car value as the battery ages. What isn't there to like about it

 

[Klausen]

look at NIO power swap, thes can do it!

 

[geem]

We used to have a wind gen, it's long gone but there Marlec HRDi controller is still connected. My plan is to use that for the Aquair.

How do you stop a towed generator from tangling with your fishing lines...?

No idea. Ours is a Dougen so it's directly behind the boat, we'll clear of fishing lines

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The concept would be to install battery under the bonnet. The idea being that its like a cassette. You pull up to a terminal, similar to going to a car wash where sensors tell you when to stop. A robotic arm pulls out the old battery and installs a new one. This is the basic principal that the Chinese buses use.
Can you imagine how hard it would be to get manufacturers to agree to this? It would solve all criticism of electric cars. You would never own a battery. It would be a service charge. You wouldn't even need to get out of the car when swapping batteries. No more waiting 40 mins for a charge. No reduction in electric car value as the battery ages. What isn't there to like about it

I think you underestimate the weight, cost and bulk of the battery in an EV. It's obviously less difficult in a bus, and a bus operates on a schedule so replacing the battery can be built into the schedule. Can you imagine the logistics and financing of a chain of service stations that are routinely handling items with a value of (probably) upwards of £20,000? You'd need to have at least as many spare batteries as customers expected in the recharging time, so the required stocks would probably be in the millions.

You probably couldn't install the battery under the bonnet a) because of the bulk and b) because the weight distribution would be all wrong. My ID.3 (roughly equivalent to the VW Golf) is considerably heavier than the equivalent IC car. The only sensible location for the battery is in the floor pan, so the weight is low and evenly distributed.

VW (unlike many manufacturers) have arranged the battery so it is modular, and if one element fails, it can be replaced without it being a whole battery job. But basically, it's a LOT cheaper and easier to provide fast charging stations than to provide a chain of battery swapping stations. As I can charge my typical EV in the time I need to go to the toilet and have a coffee, I don't feel constrained by the need for charging; I just have to plan journeys a bit more carefully.

 

[geem]

I think you underestimate the weight, cost and bulk of the battery in an EV. It's obviously less difficult in a bus, and a bus operates on a schedule so replacing the battery can be built into the schedule. Can you imagine the logistics and financing of a chain of service stations that are routinely handling items with a value of (probably) upwards of £20,000? You'd need to have at least as many spare batteries as customers expected in the recharging time, so the required stocks would probably be in the millions.

You probably couldn't install the battery under the bonnet a) because of the bulk and b) because the weight distribution would be all wrong. My ID.3 (roughly equivalent to the VW Golf) is considerably heavier than the equivalent IC car. The only sensible location for the battery is in the floor pan, so the weight is low and evenly distributed.

VW (unlike many manufacturers) have arranged the battery so it is modular, and if one element fails, it can be replaced without it being a whole battery job. But basically, it's a LOT cheaper and easier to provide fast charging stations than to provide a chain of battery swapping stations. As I can charge my typical EV in the time I need to go to the toilet and have a coffee, I don't feel constrained by the need for charging; I just have to plan journeys a bit more carefully.

I don't agree. You only have to look at some of the electric car conversion being completed to see its totally feasible. Thr batteries are not that bulky. Conversion cars don't install the batteries under the floor. It's pretty normal to install them under the bonnet where the engine was.
Thr likes of BP are already looking at feasibility to convert their forecours over to electric charging stations. Underground battery storage is entirely possible on tight forecourts as the existing fuel storage tanks would need removal anyway.
If you use your electric car for short journeys then that great but there are plenty of people that do huge mileage. Add in a load to an electric car like a trailer or caravan and your range is hopeless. Who wants to be in a position where you have to plan your journey carefully. That's not the way electric cars will become mainstream and a pleasure to use.

 

[Ceirwan]

I don't agree. You only have to look at some of the electric car conversion being completed to see its totally feasible. Thr batteries are not that bulky. Conversion cars don't install the batteries under the floor. It's pretty normal to install them under the bonnet where the engine was.
Thr likes of BP are already looking at feasibility to convert their forecours over to electric charging stations. Underground battery storage is entirely possible on tight forecourts as the existing fuel storage tanks would need removal anyway.
If you use your electric car for short journeys then that great but there are plenty of people that do huge mileage. Add in a load to an electric car like a trailer or caravan and your range is hopeless. Who wants to be in a position where you have to plan your journey carefully. That's not the way electric cars will become mainstream and a pleasure to use.

I've been in plenty of 'project cars' before & in most cases, that's what they feel like to drive, project cars.
And I follow a lot of electric project cars, other than a few exceptional cases, they are all quite compromised vehicles.

Manufacturers put the weight down low for a good reason, a Tesla battery pack can be over 500kg, even a Nissan Leaf one is over 300kg, that's not a trivial amount of weight and that's not including the motor and drivetrain, and all these battery packs will still need to be charged, I don't what advantages this solution has over charging in situ other than possibly being marginally faster.

 

[geem]

I've been in plenty of 'project cars' before & in most cases, that's what they feel like to drive, project cars.
And I follow a lot of electric project cars, other than a few exceptional cases, they are all quite compromised vehicles.

Manufacturers put the weight down low for a good reason, a Tesla battery pack can be over 500kg, even a Nissan Leaf one is over 300kg, that's not a trivial amount of weight and that's not including the motor and drivetrain, and all these battery packs will still need to be charged, I don't what advantages this solution has over charging in situ other than possibly being marginally faster.

For those that live on a terraced street with no way of charging what is the alternative? Where the battery is located in its cassette location is irrelevant. Its simply a design detail. The battery could go under the floor. It could be removed from below. The point I am making is that the world needs a different way of looking at electric drive. Assuming it's just like an IC driven vehicle isn't the way forward. Its needs a step change in thinking. If the battery was owned by a corporation rather than an individual, the risk for the individual is removed. Simply swap, battery when you need to and drive on

 

[Farmer Piles]

As you are from Cornwall you will be aware of the scars on the landscape from china clay workings. Is Cornwall ready for even greater scars caused by the extraction of Lithium on an industrial scale?
View attachment 148237

One of the lithium miners is going to extract the stuff from old waste tips and the other is using deep drilling and bringing the lithium up in solution. Hopefully not too much more scarring.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

One of the lithium miners is going to extract the stuff from old waste tips and the other is using deep drilling and bringing the lithium up in solution. Hopefully not too much more scarring.

I think that the lithium from waste tips is coming from a particular clay mineral that incorporates lithium in its structure, so it won't increase the amount of waste, just move it around a bit. But I am not at all certain of the process. Extraction from borehole water should have little if any impact on the surface, beyond the pumping and extraction plant.

 

[alan_d]

For those that live on a terraced street with no way of charging what is the alternative? Where the battery is located in its cassette location is irrelevant. Its simply a design detail. The battery could go under the floor. It could be removed from below. The point I am making is that the world needs a different way of looking at electric drive. Assuming it's just like an IC driven vehicle isn't the way forward. Its needs a step change in thinking. If the battery was owned by a corporation rather than an individual, the risk for the individual is removed. Simply swap, battery when you need to and drive on

I think there is a potential problem with making high-value car parts easily removable - they will get stolen.
Just out of interest, is there any possibility that EV owners could be vulnerable to the eqivalent having the fuel syphoned out of the tank? Could someone steal the charge from an unattended car?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I think there is a potential problem with making high-value car parts easily removable - they will get stolen.
Just out of interest, is there any possibility that EV owners could be vulnerable to the eqivalent having the fuel syphoned out of the tank? Could someone steal the charge from an unattended car?

I don't think so at present, and a simple diode in the system would prohibit it. But it may be technically feasible - I have seen schemes being investigated where EVs act as a reservoir to help manage demand for electricity. Connecting the cable on my car requires the car to be unlocked, so a potential thief of electricity would have to have the key - the presence of the actual key is required.

However, a person who attempted it would have to be knowledgeable about high voltage systems. It's probably on a level with syphoning fuel while smoking!

 

[Kelpie]

The problem is that you don't always get good days. Some days our output was well down even though we can point the solar panels at the sun. Very low output when sails in the way or clouds. Running two fridges doesn't help and cabin temperatures in the low 30s all day and most of the night due to hatches being closed. Certainly worth trying the towed gen. My friend wired his into his MPPT solar reg

Update- our passage from the Canaries to Cape Verde saw us using about 30Ah more per day than we generated, mostly because of shading. The southerly course doesn't help here. Towards the end of the passage we dropped the main and after that started putting more in the battery than we were taking out.
It will be interesting to see how the next part of the journey goes.
We ran all of our usual nav equipment but used the Hydrovane instead of the autopilot, and cooked on gas. I didn't get the Aquair rigged up after all, but would like to get it ready before we set off again.

 

[geem]

Update- our passage from the Canaries to Cape Verde saw us using about 30Ah more per day than we generated, mostly because of shading. The southerly course doesn't help here. Towards the end of the passage we dropped the main and after that started putting more in the battery than we were taking out.
It will be interesting to see how the next part of the journey goes.
We ran all of our usual nav equipment but used the Hydrovane instead of the autopilot, and cooked on gas. I didn't get the Aquair rigged up after all, but would like to get it ready before we set off again.

Great. How are you panels configured? Can you point them at the sun? Wind on the next leg is normally E or NE. If you are using twin headsails you might get less shading. When do you set off? We might see you in Antigua?

 

[Kelpie]

Great. How are you panels configured? Can you point them at the sun? Wind on the next leg is normally E or NE. If you are using twin headsails you might get less shading. When do you set off? We might see you in Antigua?

Bulk of the panels are on the Bimini, with two more 100w panels aft on the guardwires. The port one must have done a lot of the work. The bimini ones were in sun until just after midday. Dropping the main helped a fair bit.

We didn't use the twin headsail rig for this leg, it was a pretty strong forecast and from my very limited experience of it it is probably best for use in light conditions, essentially as an alternative to the spinnaker. Unlikely to try it on the next leg either based on the current forecasts.

Plan is to head for Guadeloupe. I'm not sure we'll make it as far as Antigua, as we'll be generally working our way south to Grenada for the hurricane season.

 

[roaringgirl]

Bulk of the panels are on the Bimini, with two more 100w panels aft on the guardwires. The port one must have done a lot of the work. The bimini ones were in sun until just after midday. Dropping the main helped a fair bit.

We didn't use the twin headsail rig for this leg, it was a pretty strong forecast and from my very limited experience of it it is probably best for use in light conditions, essentially as an alternative to the spinnaker. Unlikely to try it on the next leg either based on the current forecasts.

Plan is to head for Guadeloupe. I'm not sure we'll make it as far as Antigua, as we'll be generally working our way south to Grenada for the hurricane season.

You're going to spend 2 weeks crossing from Cape Verde to the Eastern Caribbean. Heading up to Antigua from Guadeloupe is only a day sail!

We had 250W of solar mounted on the davits when we crossed the Atlantic. It wasn't enough, given the shading. Crossing the Pacific I added a Watt & Sea (600 version) and the battery was full the whole time even though I ran the 12v watermaker every day and all 6 of us showered every couple of days.

Staying at anchor we were really at the mercy of the solar panels and shading. I added another 450W of PV in Tahiti and now the batts are full the whole time we're at anchor too. (Family of 4, 12v watermaker, fridge, no freezer, raymarine autopilot, LED lights throughout, 400Ah of LFP)

On the EV point - when I lived on land we had a Tesla. The superchargers provided 150kW (they're now up to 250kW). Tesla's original design was a battery that was swappable in 10minutes (and it is); but they realised it was more convenient to build a powerful DC charging infrastructure.

When you decide to drive a long way in a Tesla, the on-board route planner optimises your route to include charge stops that keep you in the battery's golden zone (between 10 and 90%) so it can use the full power available at the charger. Following this regime it took me 14hrs to drive from Edinburgh to Penzance. It took me 13.5hrs the year before in our diesel.

 

[geem]

Bulk of the panels are on the Bimini, with two more 100w panels aft on the guardwires. The port one must have done a lot of the work. The bimini ones were in sun until just after midday. Dropping the main helped a fair bit.

We didn't use the twin headsail rig for this leg, it was a pretty strong forecast and from my very limited experience of it it is probably best for use in light conditions, essentially as an alternative to the spinnaker. Unlikely to try it on the next leg either based on the current forecasts.

Plan is to head for Guadeloupe. I'm not sure we'll make it as far as Antigua, as we'll be generally working our way south to Grenada for the hurricane season.

The whole windward and Leeward chain is only 500nm long. We regulary go up and down it a few times during the season. Antigua has a lot to offer. Caribbean 600 RORC race on Feb 20th is worth watching the start. Lots of great anchorages. Guadeloupe has very little in comparison.
We will be heading to Grenada for the summer. We have had an enforced change of plan. We won't leave for Grenada until May of June. It's only a two day passage if we do it none stop.

 

[Kelpie]

Haha I suppose I have to get out of the mindset that it's wrong to ever retrace your steps.
We did think about Antigua but check in sounds much easier in Guadeloupe. Just one less thing to stress about at the end of the passage.
The fees for Antigua seem kind of high too, unless I'm not understanding it correctly.
Anyway we expect to have at least two seasons in the Caribbean so plenty of time to see everywhere... famous last words ?

 

[geem]

Clearance fees at Jolly Harbour, Antigua were 85 EC so about £28. Included in that is a cruising permit for 2 months that is 25 EC or £9.