Li and Pb batteries

Beneteau381

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Agreed. The revolution in electric cars and their charging is not far away. Super fast charging is just around the corner. The infrastructure as you say will be where we currently have petrol forecourts in cities and where they can get a good high current connection to the grid. In addition, battery storage at these locations so they can charge these up at night when demand is low such that they have reduced peak demand during the day is the likely scenario.
My issue is though, where is this power coming from. The trillions of litres of ic fuel burned every day over the world will require massive power generation capability being put in place to replace it.
Nuke, tidal maybe and fusion is the only answer that I can see.
 

geem

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My issue is though, where is this power coming from. The trillions of litres of ic fuel burned every day over the world will require massive power generation capability being put in place to replace it.
Nuke, tidal maybe and fusion is the only answer that I can see.
I did some calculations a few years back when I was working and reckoned we needed to quadruple our current wind energy production. We also need to add solar into the mix. New nuclear also needs to be in there as it runs at 100% output 24/7/365 with predictabily and ideally would meet our energy baseline needs. The reality is that no one single source of energy is ikely to be the answer.
 

AntarcticPilot

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Out of the ground like any other ore. Rare earths aren't rare either.
Perfectly true; lithium is no rarer than metals like lead or copper. However, the problem is that it is less likely to be concentrated in economically useful ores; chemically it is very like sodium and potassium, which are common throughout the earth's crust, and there is no common natural mechanism by which it is concentrated. The main sources are hydrothermal minerals and salt deposits, but the concentration is low in both.
 

penfold

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Where do you get the fact that we are not on the limit on the Grid? Just asking out of interest
From the same info released by NG that the tabloids hysterically interpreted as meaning there would almost certainly be rolling blackouts; in order for that to be necessary the interconnectors to Norway, France etc would need to all fail, unplanned outages at UK power stations, failure of LNG delivery and a cold event of similar or greater magnitude to that which occurred a couple of weeks ago. 1 or 2 of those might happen, all happening at once is not quite impossible but definitely 5 numbers plus bonus ball territory.
 

geem

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From the same info released by NG that the tabloids hysterically interpreted as meaning there would almost certainly be rolling blackouts; in order for that to be necessary the interconnectors to Norway, France etc would need to all fail, unplanned outages at UK power stations, failure of LNG delivery and a cold event of similar or greater magnitude to that which occurred a couple of weeks ago. 1 or 2 of those might happen, all happening at once is not quite impossible but definitely 5 numbers plus bonus ball territory.
What is the capacity of the NG compared to actual peak load? That would be a good method of accessing how close we are to blackouts.
 

Supertramp

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It will be interesting to see how the UK's energy use compares this winter to previous years. Market economics would say a 2-3x energy cost increase would reduce usage. But I'm not sure that will happen, partly because a lot of energy use is fixed short term. Although I am turning off more lights!

One of the issues with converting a country to renewables is that we all want to live the same as we did before. If it was me going off grid with, say, a panel, LI battery and a windmill then my usage would change to fit my energy availability. Consumption and generation are too far apart, leaving generation plans a big game for governments and business.

When governments introduce modest financial support to encourage consumer choice change (cars, panels) then some change in our use happens.
 

Momac

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With regard to the lithium: there are now two companies looking to extract lithium from the ground here in Cornwall. They say that there is plenty of the stuff to be mined and they are well on their way to being operational. I have a sneaking suspicion that just as they start to ramp up production, some clever bod somewhere will come up with the next innovation for batteries that doesn't use lithium.
As you are from Cornwall you will be aware of the scars on the landscape from china clay workings. Is Cornwall ready for even greater scars caused by the extraction of Lithium on an industrial scale?
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Kelpie

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Are you still planning to cross the Atlantic? How do you propose to charge the battery should your solar be in the shade all day or you get several days of cloudy weather?
Yes, plan to leave in about a week.
We've been living with this system for eighteen months now.

My design philosophy was to not rip anything out. The boat as we bought it worked perfectly well. The lithium system could die and with a flick of a switch we can have everything that really matters running off lead acid again. And moving the fridge and freezer back to the lead acid would take about ten minutes of rewiring.

In practice, in periods of poor solar power we just go back to gas cooking. Even on a crappy day that's the 800w+ of solar can keep up with the fridge and freezer.

The autopilot and other gear can run off either the lithium or the lead acid- which is unchanged and hence still alternator charged (in addition to 230w of its own solar).
 

Kelpie

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My issue is though, where is this power coming from. The trillions of litres of ic fuel burned every day over the world will require massive power generation capability being put in place to replace it.
Nuke, tidal maybe and fusion is the only answer that I can see.
The surprising thing is that we could take an the fossil fuels currently burned directly in ICE vehicles, and burn it in power stations instead, using that to charge EVs. Despite transmission and conversion losses, this would still let us drive more miles for less energy overall, and would be better for the environment because a big power station can run closer to optimum performance with more sophisticated systems in place to prevent pollution. And of course it keeps pollution out of densely populated urban areas.
 

Spirit (of Glenans)

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Out of the ground like any other ore. Rare earths aren't rare either.

The additional load imposed by EVs is not yet significant, mainly because there aren't that many, not enough are sold annually to create a meaningful burden yet and they don't all need a full charge every night because the average distance a car travels is less than 20 miles a day. The UK power supply is not on the limit unless one choses to heed the tabloids, although a succession of govts have either refused to make decisions about electricity generation or have made bad ones and reversing this trend is the work of a decade or more.
I have read somewhere that courier companies such as UPS cannot add any further EV-based delivery capacity, in the London area, because they have reached the limit of their available charging capacity.
 

penfold

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As you are from Cornwall you will be aware of the scars on the landscape from china clay workings. Is Cornwall ready for even greater scars caused by the extraction of Lithium on an industrial scale?
View attachment 148237
All the current lithium extraction ventures in Cornwall involve separating lithium salts from brine obtained from deep wells, no open pits.
 

Kelpie

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I have wondered for some time; why didn't the EV manufacturing industry set up a standard interchangeable, quickly-demountable battery that would be common to all cars and could be swapped out at service stations in a couple of minutes, much in the style of massive power-tool batteries?
It's not straightforward from the technical point of view- it's more like swapping out the engine on an ICE vehicle. There is at least one company using this model but AFAIK there is currently no sort of standard interface in place.

Secondly, it's difficult to get competing companies to adopt a single standard. Whoever came up with it will want to financially benefit. Nobody wants to give up their standard. Eventually, given enough time and/or policies forcing the issue, they tend to coalesce.
See e.g. IBM allowing their 'PC' to be built by other companies. They only did it when they were forced to in order to survive. They then became just one of many manufacturers. It's a fate which Apple managed to avoid.
See also Betamax, or memory cards- we all use SD now, but 15yrs ago every company had their own design, trying to lock consumers in to the brand.
 

Momac

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All the current lithium extraction ventures in Cornwall involve separating lithium salts from brine obtained from deep wells, no open pits.
Sounds like a case of ''out if sight out of mind''.
Is there no waste product?
 

AntarcticPilot

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Sounds like a case of ''out if sight out of mind''.
Is there no waste product?
Not really - it's basically salt solution, so if they want, they can extract salt and magnesium from it as well. Same basic process as is used to extract salt; it's fractional crystallization. It's not like (say) iron or copper, where many tons of waste rock are mined for every ton of metal. Brine is pretty much all useable; it was the foundation of ICI in Middlesborough, which used salt dissolved out of geological deposits as a major raw material.
 

geem

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Yes, plan to leave in about a week.
We've been living with this system for eighteen months now.

My design philosophy was to not rip anything out. The boat as we bought it worked perfectly well. The lithium system could die and with a flick of a switch we can have everything that really matters running off lead acid again. And moving the fridge and freezer back to the lead acid would take about ten minutes of rewiring.

In practice, in periods of poor solar power we just go back to gas cooking. Even on a crappy day that's the 800w+ of solar can keep up with the fridge and freezer.

The autopilot and other gear can run off either the lithium or the lead acid- which is unchanged and hence still alternator charged (in addition to 230w of its own solar).
We came across 12 months ago with 720w of solar positioned to maximise the solar input when sailing. We also have a Duogen towed generator. In addition to the autopilot we have a Windpilot self steering. The Duogen caught a huge piece of discarded fishing net that broke it. We didn't realise how much the Duogen did in terms of night time energy production. We really missed it. We swapped over full time to the Windpilot. Turned off the chartplotter at night and used the ipad instead. We cook on gas. A few days of cloudy weather and shading from the sails and the batteries were not getting fully charged. We resorted to running the diesel generator a couple of times and used that as an opportunity to top up the water tanks by running the watermaker as well.
Friends have recently come over arriving this week. They broke their towed generator onroute. He reckons that the towed generator provided half his night time charging requirements. They had to resort to daily 1hr generator use once their towed generator broke. They were also using a Hydrovane. They have the same amount of solar as us. You do get a lot of cloud on the Atlantic crossing. The sky is rarely cloud free
 

Kelpie

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We came across 12 months ago with 720w of solar positioned to maximise the solar input when sailing. We also have a Duogen towed generator. In addition to the autopilot we have a Windpilot self steering. The Duogen caught a huge piece of discarded fishing net that broke it. We didn't realise how much the Duogen did in terms of night time energy production. We really missed it. We swapped over full time to the Windpilot. Turned off the chartplotter at night and used the ipad instead. We cook on gas. A few days of cloudy weather and shading from the sails and the batteries were not getting fully charged. We resorted to running the diesel generator a couple of times and used that as an opportunity to top up the water tanks by running the watermaker as well.
Friends have recently come over arriving this week. They broke their towed generator onroute. He reckons that the towed generator provided half his night time charging requirements. They had to resort to daily 1hr generator use once their towed generator broke. They were also using a Hydrovane. They have the same amount of solar as us. You do get a lot of cloud on the Atlantic crossing. The sky is rarely cloud free
Interesting. I picked up a secondhand Aquair before we left and have never fitted it. I think I'd better bump that up the jobs list!

I'm really surprised that 700w of solar cannot keep up with a boat which is cooking on gas and using a windvane.

Another benefit of lithium is that you can make the most of limited sunlight hours. We can go from empty (<20%) to 100% in under five hours on a good day. No lengthy absorption charging stage.
 

geem

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Interesting. I picked up a secondhand Aquair before we left and have never fitted it. I think I'd better bump that up the jobs list!

I'm really surprised that 700w of solar cannot keep up with a boat which is cooking on gas and using a windvane.

Another benefit of lithium is that you can make the most of limited sunlight hours. We can go from empty (<20%) to 100% in under five hours on a good day. No lengthy absorption charging stage.
The problem is that you don't always get good days. Some days our output was well down even though we can point the solar panels at the sun. Very low output when sails in the way or clouds. Running two fridges doesn't help and cabin temperatures in the low 30s all day and most of the night due to hatches being closed. Certainly worth trying the towed gen. My friend wired his into his MPPT solar reg
 

Kelpie

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The problem is that you don't always get good days. Some days our output was well down even though we can point the solar panels at the sun. Very low output when sails in the way or clouds. Running two fridges doesn't help and cabin temperatures in the low 30s all day and most of the night due to hatches being closed. Certainly worth trying the towed gen. My friend wired his into his MPPT solar reg
We used to have a wind gen, it's long gone but there Marlec HRDi controller is still connected. My plan is to use that for the Aquair.

How do you stop a towed generator from tangling with your fishing lines...?
 

geem

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I have wondered for some time; why didn't the EV manufacturing industry set up a standard interchangeable, quickly-demountable battery that would be common to all cars and could be swapped out at service stations in a couple of minutes, much in the style of massive power-tool batteries?
Agreed, they do this on buses in China. Can you imagine trying to get car manufacturers to agree?
VHS And Betamax springs to mind
 
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