Li and Pb batteries

[Neeves]

We are not in the market for new batteries, yet, but I try to keep in touch with developments.

In Australia terrestrial distances are simply too far for many to consider an electrical vehicle - so there needs to be (and going to be) significant changes to the electric vehicle market, or technology (both of batteries and charging protocol) before there is universal acceptance. Currently electric vehicles are fine for visits to the local supermarket in the cities but not of much use if you want to visit your relatives in the next capital city (800 - 4000 kilometres away).

Whatever advances are made for motor vehicles will trickle down to the sailing 'industry'

This is a very short article and discussion on some, or one, of the developments from Morgans Cloud.

Q&A—New Lead Acid Batteries From Victron

Jonathan

 

[roaringgirl]

Before we started our circumnavigation we had an electric car with a battery that would last longer than my bladder at motorway speeds. We frequently drove Edinburgh to London with a couple of charging stops. At the time the maximum charger power available was 120kW, and this was sufficient to mean that by the time I'd been to the toilet and got a coffee, the car was ready to go. Maximum charge power is now up to 250kW.

 

[Kelpie]

No form of lead acid battery is ever going to be relevant to EVs. And these exotic chemistries are really, really expensive.
As people are probably bored of hearing me say, I built a LiFePO4 battery from bare cells for substantially lower than the cost of deep cycle lead acid of equivalent useable capacity. There's a bit of a myth that lithium is more expensive than lead acid. Some of the premium lead acid chemistries are shockingly expensive.

 

[Neeves]

As people are probably bored of hearing me say, I built a LiFePO4 battery from bare cells for substantially lower than the cost of deep cycle lead acid of equivalent useable capacity. There's a bit of a myth that lithium is more expensive than lead acid. Some of the premium lead acid chemistries are shockingly expensive.

Ignore those that are bored, they have a short attention span and Daydream has the answer.

The problem with Lithium is.....

where is it going to come from? - ignoring the long term availability of rare earths.....

 

[Kelpie]

Ignore those that are bored, they have a short attention span and Daydream has the answer.

The problem with Lithium is.....

where is it going to come from? - ignoring the long term availability of rare earths.....

Sodium ion is the clear alternative.
There's also a lot of good work happening with lithium recycling, as well as 'second life' applications.

 

[vyv_cox]

Interesting news item yesterday, Switzerland announced a partial ban on electric cars during power shortages. Switzerland considers electric-car bans during electricity shortages
The lack of electric power is certain to be the limiting factor in the drive to all-electric vehicles. Even now UK power supplies are on the limit

 

[Farmer Piles]

It is interesting to think how slow the changes have been or how there has been a complete lack revolution with regards to batteries in recent years. The arrival of the nicad battery was a game changer and then along came the lithium batteries. Bar refinements and tweaks there has been little real advancement since then. If the same were true of mobile phones we all still be using Nokia 3310 phones. I appreciate that it's not due to lack of research or scientific effort.
Purely observation.

 

[Farmer Piles]

With regard to the lithium: there are now two companies looking to extract lithium from the ground here in Cornwall. They say that there is plenty of the stuff to be mined and they are well on their way to being operational. I have a sneaking suspicion that just as they start to ramp up production, some clever bod somewhere will come up with the next innovation for batteries that doesn't use lithium.

 

[vyv_cox]

It is interesting to think how slow the changes have been or how there has been a complete lack revolution with regards to batteries in recent years. The arrival of the nicad battery was a game changer and then along came the lithium batteries. Bar refinements and tweaks there has been little real advancement since then. If the same were true of mobile phones we all still be using Nokia 3310 phones. I appreciate that it's not due to lack of research or scientific effort.
Purely observation.

In 1975 I was working at the Electricity Council Research Centre. One of the divisions was researching new battery technology and was rumoured to be on the brink of a breakthrough. It's a long process!

 

[Kelpie]

It is interesting to think how slow the changes have been or how there has been a complete lack revolution with regards to batteries in recent years. The arrival of the nicad battery was a game changer and then along came the lithium batteries. Bar refinements and tweaks there has been little real advancement since then. If the same were true of mobile phones we all still be using Nokia 3310 phones. I appreciate that it's not due to lack of research or scientific effort.
Purely observation.

They have, in general, become much cheaper though. I feel that in the last year or two thirds might have flattened off due to demand outstripping supply, and general supply chain issues.
I certainly can't seem to replicate the price I paid for my cells in early 2021 (£350 for 4x270Ah). Best price last time I looked was over £500. Still cheaper than buying Trojans though.

 

[Farmer Piles]

In 1975 I was working at the Electricity Council Research Centre. One of the divisions was researching new battery technology and was rumoured to be on the brink of a breakthrough. It's a long process!

Quite. It's a bit like nuclear fusion - always thirty years away. Has been for decades.

 

[Tinto]

It is interesting to think how slow the changes have been or how there has been a complete lack revolution with regards to batteries in recent years. The arrival of the nicad battery was a game changer and then along came the lithium batteries. Bar refinements and tweaks there has been little real advancement since then. If the same were true of mobile phones we all still be using Nokia 3310 phones. I appreciate that it's not due to lack of research or scientific effort.
Purely observation.

There was Nickel Metal Hydride in between NiCd and Lithium but there are a few versions of lithium and it’s improving all the time. I know of one company which has three grades of lithium battery.
Lithium Air looks promising once they can commercialise it

 

[geem]

They have, in general, become much cheaper though. I feel that in the last year or two thirds might have flattened off due to demand outstripping supply, and general supply chain issues.
I certainly can't seem to replicate the price I paid for my cells in early 2021 (£350 for 4x270Ah). Best price last time I looked was over £500. Still cheaper than buying Trojans though.

Depends where you buy your Trojans. Mine came from Peurto Rico. About £500 and no system conversion associated with going from a lead system to lithium. Doing a proper installation up to proffesional standards costs a lot in ancillaries such as b2b chargers, class T fuses, high amperage relays, etc. I don't need these things with my lead set up but they add significant cost. My electrical 8nstallation currently would pass an electrical survey but without these items in a lithium installation it would not.

 

[penfold]

Ignore those that are bored, they have a short attention span and Daydream has the answer.

The problem with Lithium is.....

where is it going to come from? - ignoring the long term availability of rare earths.....

Out of the ground like any other ore. Rare earths aren't rare either.

Interesting news item yesterday, Switzerland announced a partial ban on electric cars during power shortages. Switzerland considers electric-car bans during electricity shortages
The lack of electric power is certain to be the limiting factor in the drive to all-electric vehicles. Even now UK power supplies are on the limit

The additional load imposed by EVs is not yet significant, mainly because there aren't that many, not enough are sold annually to create a meaningful burden yet and they don't all need a full charge every night because the average distance a car travels is less than 20 miles a day. The UK power supply is not on the limit unless one choses to heed the tabloids, although a succession of govts have either refused to make decisions about electricity generation or have made bad ones and reversing this trend is the work of a decade or more.

 

[Kelpie]

Depends where you buy your Trojans. Mine came from Peurto Rico. About £500 and no system conversion associated with going from a lead system to lithium. Doing a proper installation up to proffesional standards costs a lot in ancillaries such as b2b chargers, class T fuses, high amperage relays, etc. I don't need these things with my lead set up but they add significant cost. My electrical 8nstallation currently would pass an electrical survey but without these items in a lithium installation it would not.

I cannot charge from the engine, a deliberate choice which greatly simplified the system design and cut out some costly components.
I don't have any relays in the system, no need for them.
Class T fuse is a surprisingly large cost and very hard to find in Europe at least. With a bit of luck, and shopping around, can be done for under £100. I started out with ANL because it was all I could get my hands on at the time.

My prices may be out of date but when I built my system last year the total cost would have considerably higher if I had chosen deep cycle lead acid instead of DIY lithium. And that is including the ancillaries.

 

[vyv_cox]

The UK power supply is not on the limit unless one choses to heed the tabloids, although a succession of govts have either refused to make decisions about electricity generation or have made bad ones and reversing this trend is the work of a decade or more.

I read that during the cold snap before Xmas that Drax coal fired power station began warming up their mothballed generators, although in the end they were not needed. Generation is available but maybe not the 'green' type the government has committed to.

 

[geem]

I cannot charge from the engine, a deliberate choice which greatly simplified the system design and cut out some costly components.
I don't have any relays in the system, no need for them.
Class T fuse is a surprisingly large cost and very hard to find in Europe at least. With a bit of luck, and shopping around, can be done for under £100. I started out with ANL because it was all I could get my hands on at the time.

My prices may be out of date but when I built my system last year the total cost would have considerably higher if I had chosen deep cycle lead acid instead of DIY lithium. And that is including the ancillaries.

Are you still planning to cross the Atlantic? How do you propose to charge the battery should your solar be in the shade all day or you get several days of cloudy weather?

 

[geem]

Out of the ground like any other ore. Rare earths aren't rare either.

The additional load imposed by EVs is not yet significant, mainly because there aren't that many, not enough are sold annually to create a meaningful burden yet and they don't all need a full charge every night because the average distance a car travels is less than 20 miles a day. The UK power supply is not on the limit unless one choses to heed the tabloids, although a succession of govts have either refused to make decisions about electricity generation or have made bad ones and reversing this trend is the work of a decade or more.

Where do you get the fact that we are not on the limit on the Grid? Just asking out of interest

 

[Beneteau381]

We are not in the market for new batteries, yet, but I try to keep in touch with developments.

In Australia terrestrial distances are simply too far for many to consider an electrical vehicle - so there needs to be (and going to be) significant changes to the electric vehicle market, or technology (both of batteries and charging protocol) before there is universal acceptance. Currently electric vehicles are fine for visits to the local supermarket in the cities but not of much use if you want to visit your relatives in the next capital city (800 - 4000 kilometres away).

Whatever advances are made for motor vehicles will trickle down to the sailing 'industry'

This is a very short article and discussion on some, or one, of the developments from Morgans Cloud.

Q&A—New Lead Acid Batteries From Victron

Jonathan

Hmm, so your argument is that electric vehicles are not of much use in Oz because distances are too great between destinations? Surely using your "logic" then, IC engined vehicles are similarly not of much use? They have to be refueled as well! The charging regime in first world countries is such that petrol stations are where chargers are!

 

[geem]

Hmm, so your argument is that electric vehicles are not of much use in Oz because distances are too great between destinations? Surely using your "logic" then, IC engined vehicles are similarly not of much use? They have to be refueled as well! The charging regime in first world countries is such that petrol stations are where chargers are!

Agreed. The revolution in electric cars and their charging is not far away. Super fast charging is just around the corner. The infrastructure as you say will be where we currently have petrol forecourts in cities and where they can get a good high current connection to the grid. In addition, battery storage at these locations so they can charge these up at night when demand is low such that they have reduced peak demand during the day is the likely scenario.