legal definition of force majeure?----any legal experts here

lenten said:
she is thinking of sharing the pain with her customers and returning 50% of their deposits-------would this be fair-----would this be legally aceptable
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If she is unable to provide the service then retaining the deposit would be outrageous behaviour. She should return the lot.
 
JumbleDuck said:
If she is unable to provide the service then retaining the deposit would be outrageous behaviour. She should return the lot.
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More than a bit OTT to describe it as outrageous behaviour. As I understand it the deposits were non refundable and while I appreciate the guests are prevented from traveling through no fault of their own they do not have an automatic entitlement to a refund. Some accommodation and service providers will be forced out of business if they have to return all deposits and many are only offering credit notes. If they go out of business there will be nothing for anyone. Most have used deposits to prepare for the season and are not sitting on cash piles. If OP's daughter offered credit notes @ 100% or refunds @ 50% I'd say that's fair.
 
anoccasionalyachtsman said:
Bear in mind that there are two sides to this. The customer can't travel to the site and would therefore forfeit the deposit.
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On the contrary, he is allowed one trip per day & could turn up on site & demand that the site is managed to allow correct isolation. My wife would have gone on her caravan holiday & stayed in the van taking single daily walks along the coast away from others.
 
Irish Rover said:
More than a bit OTT to describe it as outrageous behaviour. As I understand it the deposits were non refundable ...
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Non-refundable if the customer changes their mind, but not if the business can't supply the service.
How would you feel if you paid a 10% deposit on a boat and the seller later said "it sank yesterday, so you can't have it and you can whistle for your deposit"?
 
JumbleDuck said:
Non-refundable if the customer changes their mind, but not if the business can't supply the service.
How would you feel if you paid a 10% deposit on a boat and the seller later said "it sank yesterday, so you can't have it and you can whistle for your deposit"?
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I thought Oyster buyers were perfectly happy with such business practices?
 
Daydream believer said:
On the contrary, he is allowed one trip per day & could turn up on site & demand that the site is managed to allow correct isolation. My wife would have gone on her caravan holiday & stayed in the van taking single daily walks along the coast away from others.
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I'm allowed one trip to a glamping holiday per day? Cool, could you point me at where that's written down?

My point is really that the contract can't be completed by either party, and that it's hardly fair to expect the supplier to take the whole loss.

Suppose I'd booked a week's mountain bike hire at the shop next to the camp site - should he give my deposit back because I can't come?
 
anoccasionalyachtsman said:
I'm allowed one trip to a glamping holiday per day? Cool, could you point me at where that's written down?
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Note you added "glamping holiday"
Show where it is not allowed to take daily exercise.
. If you decide to exercise for 4 hours over a distance of 100 miles that is still once is it not?
Just have to keep away from others. Nobody has restricted( as far as i am aware) how long the exercise should be, or whether it should stop at one's home or a secure accommodation ( HM prison perhaps !!before some wag suggests it :D )
 
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JumbleDuck said:
Non-refundable if the customer changes their mind, but not if the business can't supply the service.
How would you feel if you paid a 10% deposit on a boat and the seller later said "it sank yesterday, so you can't have it and you can whistle for your deposit"?
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The sinking boat analogy is a red herring.
Non refundable is just that unless the booking conditions say otherwise. There will be thousands of accommodation providers, tour organisers and the like in the UK who will have to declare bankruptcy if forced to return all deposits and hopefully common sense will prevail and credit notes or vouchers will be accepted. most businesses will have spent the deposit money already so won't have it to give back.
 
Daydream believer said:
taking the argument one step further one would expect airlines to withhold flight money as OK
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Covered by specific legislation. The airlines are lobbying hard to have the requirement to refund within 14 days set aside and say if it's not there will be bankruptcies and the taxpayers will end up footing the bill for refunds a la Thomas Cook.
 
Irish Rover said:
The sinking boat analogy is a red herring.
Non refundable is just that unless the booking conditions say otherwise. There will be thousands of accommodation providers, tour organisers and the like in the UK who will have to declare bankruptcy if forced to return all deposits and hopefully common sense will prevail and credit notes or vouchers will be accepted. most businesses will have spent the deposit money already so won't have it to give back.
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So one sets up a business taking deposits & then holding them & crying wolf & it is Ok is it? Because that is what they are doing.
In the circumstances a credit note for use later on is reasonable enough. In that event neither party loose out provided the campsite do not renege on the deal. But if it is used as a con to keep the money, I would be very concerned.
 
Daydream believer said:
On the contrary, he is allowed one trip per day & could turn up on site & demand that the site is managed to allow correct isolation. My wife would have gone on her caravan holiday & stayed in the van taking single daily walks along the coast away from others.
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Travel for holidays and to second homes is not "essential" - it's clear in the guidance. So no glamping.
 
Daydream believer said:
So one sets up a business taking deposits & then holding them & crying wolf & it is Ok is it? Because that is what they are doing.
In the circumstances a credit note for use later on is reasonable enough. In that event neither party loose out provided the campsite do not renege on the deal. But if it is used as a con to keep the money, I would be very concerned.
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Using inflammatory language like con job, renege and crying wolf is totally inappropriate in the current circumstances. Most seasonal businesses depend on deposits to finance their preparation period and generally give discounted prices to encourage early bookings. It's win, win for both parties. These are exceptional circumstances and businesses shouldn't be bankrupted when a bit of goodwill and common sense all around would enable them to continue. Most of these small businesses also give seasonal employment.
 
Daydream believer said:
So one sets up a business taking deposits & then holding them & crying wolf & it is Ok is it? Because that is what they are doing.
In the circumstances a credit note for use later on is reasonable enough. In that event neither party loose out provided the campsite do not renege on the deal. But if it is used as a con to keep the money, I would be very concerned.
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Don't be daft.
 
thank you photodog for your"" frustrated contract" advice----took a bit of wading through but as i understand it ----if a contract is frustrated by outside events and cannot be completed ---then if one party has had expenses before the date of cancellation then they are entitled keep a proportion of the money paid to them
 
Irish Rover said:
The sinking boat analogy is a red herring.
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It's a very good analogy; the provider is unable to honour the contract because of something outwith their control.
Non refundable is just that unless the booking conditions say otherwise.
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Yes, if the customer changes their mind. Do you really think that a business can take a deposit, decide not to fulfil the deal and then just keep the money? "Sorry, we've decided not to sell you that car, but we're keeping the thousand pounds you paid."
Can I claim back a non-refundable deposit?
There will be thousands of accommodation providers, tour organisers and the like in the UK who will have to declare bankruptcy if forced to return all deposits and hopefully common sense will prevail and credit notes or vouchers will be accepted. most businesses will have spent the deposit money already so won't have it to give back.
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Tough luck for them, but that is quite a different matter. Understanding customers may well accept a credit note, but they should not be obliged to.

I have a holiday cottage booked in Norfolk for Easter week. It was booked and paid in full, non-refundable, ages ago. I've had an email from cottages.com to say that I can have full credit to spend within a year. That's fine, because the accommodation is still available to be and I could in theory use it - I might, for all they know, live two miles away. However if they decided that it was simply not available I would expect a full refund.

Curious sidenote: they say I can request the deferral through my cottages.com account, but I don't have one, as I booked through booking.com. Booking.com say that I can cancel the booking "free of charge" and then immediately underneath that I will be "charged in full" if I cancel. This is going to be fun.
 
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