Legal and moral responsibilities at sea

[Bathdave]

I watched it too, the 9pm slot on BBC4 has some good dramas over the years

I enjoyed it, both as a 'boaty story' and a drama

I thought it was well done

Most of the responses on this thread say call CG, which is exactly what the yacht did, on several occasions ..they were in open ocean well out of VHF range.

Given those factors, I think the tow is what we would have done.

A storm then blew up, and the next episodes will hopefully clarify who did what once the storm started.

 

[cherod]

see utubers " Kittywake " video , posted today.

 

[William_H]

This drama must be seen in the light of a lot of passion in Oz about refugees and boats. After a lot of boating disasters Oz government (supported by opposition) made a rule that no person arriving by boat illegally would ever be given residence in Oz. This rule once it trickled down to the criminal people smugglers in Indonesia and finally to the refugees put a stop to the boats. The Oz government put pressure on small island nations to accept the refugees who did come by boat after this ruling. Papua New Guinea and Noumea. Here many people have been kept in camps for up to 10years. There is as you can imagine much concern about these people in detention. Note they have always had the offer of transport back to their origins with a cash bonus. Not many have taken up this offer. Of recent times some have been given residency in USA under a deal brokered with Obama. Some have taken up residence in that Island country.
The "children in detention" have always been an emotional topic. Hence this drama (I did look at some of it and turned it off) has a lot of sympathy for the refugees. Or is it I just don't want to think about it?
Now I reckon I am as morally sympathetic as the next man or more so. But I do not want Oz to be culturally changed by migrants of other cultures. I am sure UK (anglo saxons) will understand my concern. Certainly the government should have a say in how many and who can come in. It saddens me to know that my UK friends are treated in the name of equality as migrants in the same way as a North African. Anyway it is not politically correct to make negative comments about different ethnic groups arriving in Oz.
I may be wrong but I suspect much of Brexit push is really about a concern for open borders with EU.
Anyway back to the subject. Fortunately oz northern shores are so hostile that boats had to count on making it further south to a town or getting picked up. Getting ashore unseen is easy. Surviving is the hard part. So in Oz experience refugees were always keen to be picked up so were not violent or troublesome. I would think this would be the case with people in boats in the English Channel. So perhaps the concerns of would be rescuers is unfounded especially if they are only in small numbers. I guess any skipper is entitled to be concerned.
So I don't have any answers on the migrant dilemma in Oz or UK. It is all very easy to be outspoken calling for generosity towards refugees (economic or political) but that is when there is no chance the government will open the flood gates. I just know that I live in the lucky country but fear if we shared it too much it would become less lucky. Perhaps they are not responsible but like people in their home country have destroyed their countries with wars. Peace is our greatest asset in Oz and UK we must not risk it. Am I a heartless git for speaking what I think a lot of people feel? Expience over many decades has shown that after a few generations migrants from different cultures become as Ozie as you would wish but in the meantime disenfranchised migrant youth can be a real problem. (and don't get me started on Australias "first nation" youth.) ol'will

 

[Zing]

As someone who often crosses the channel from the Solent, there is quite a long stretch of water where, even when I can receive VHF messages from the UK, I cannot respond. I've had occasion to try to contact french authorities and had no response so I can only assume that for small craft there's a significant dead spot for ship-shore communications. I'd be struggling to bring even as few as six persons on board to assist them, so I'm not at all sure how I'd react if presented with the problem. An "all ships" broadcast on Ch 16 in the hope that something a bit more capable is in the area?

You need to sort out your VHF. It shouldn’t do that.

 

[RichardS]

"Safe Harbour" on Saturday night BBC4?

I've now set it on HD series record and will watch last Saturday's on catch up.

Thanks for the heads-up.

Richard

 

[AntarcticPilot]

You need to sort out your VHF. It shouldn’t do that.

+1. And even if out of range of shore stations, there are LOTS of ships and other vessels, all of which should be able to pass on your call to the coastguard.

 

[Graham376]

Some years ago, met a guy who had come across a boatload of immigrants in distress but can't remember where. He was within VHF range, called it in and was told in no uncertain terms not to let them board if he valued his boat or possibly life, just to stand off until help arrived.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Some years ago, met a guy who had come across a boatload of immigrants in distress but can't remember where. He was within VHF range, called it in and was told in no uncertain terms not to let them board if he valued his boat or possibly life, just to stand off until help arrived.

This is the advise from CG station in the med , call it in , stand by , and if you have to do anything. Use a dinghy or life raft , in the case where the boat is sunking ,
I remember the story of Andy and Steph some here may know them , full time liveaboard now back on land .
For me the safely of my boat and crew as to come first . If it was a child or say One Person yes I probably would help them on board , if there was four or five sorry no ,
A dinghy will keep them safe until help arrives.
Also remember coming into a marina with a group of illegal could see you locked up even if it's for a short time .

 

[Stemar]

Also remember coming into a marina with a group of illegal could see you locked up even if it's for a short time .

I don't see that as an issue provided I've called in before arriving. I think that, if I did pick up survivors from a sinking boat, which is probably the only time I would allow them on board, I'd prefer to anchor off and wait for the authorities.

 

[jeanpaulcopie]

Legal : Call the coast guards or what ever!
Moral : Just take them where they want to go!
Just you to decide. Sometimes legal is just not moral!

 

[GregOddity]

I would immediately place an All Ships Call and activate EPIRB, DSC and deploy a RED flare. And take them on board. Space Blankets and hot tea and food and make my way Slowly to a major port to wait for Border Force or coast guard keeping enough distance from shore not to temp anyone on board to jump overboard and try to swim to shore possibly creating a secondary emergency.

The facts are that anyone on a WINTER passage on the channel in a dinghy is going to be suffering from exposure and barely able to hold a cup of hot tea, let alone take over a boat.
Then there’s the fact that none of you would even be able to spot a Toddler inside his mother jacket and wearing an inflated life jacket. Let alone a baby. In the Med, they have special spotters for that and heavily pregnant women. As the mothers try to protect infants from the elements it also keeps them hidden until the very last moment of coming on board and that can have pretty disastrous consequences.

The MORAL? Only HUMAN LIFE matters! The Legal? For lawyers to sort out. As a Sailor? Remember the Captain of the Costa Concordia? That’s how you will be seen and rightly so!

So much FEAR of Immigrants... that all human consideration is lost. WoW !

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

You have experience of this do you?

I can’t believe some of you lot at times, feed emm the dinghy one at a time indeed.

Heave to, get them aboard if you can, make sure anyone who needs first aid gets it and give the rest a cup of tea.

One more boatfull is hardly going to push the population figures over the edge and these are real people!!

Really...

_______________________

I don't know what happens in your part of the world but in the Central Mediterranean it happens all the time. Once I came across a small boat claiming that they had run out of fuel was outside of our territorial waters. This was outside of our territorial waters and I offered to give them a tow towards Malta. They were reluctant to accept a tow and insisted on being given fuel. There was no way that I was going to come alongside a boat loaded with young men who could have easily been illegal migrants. My priorities - regardless of whether legal, moral or rational - have always been (1) my boat, (2) my crew and (3) others.
Later, when I was within range, I contacted the Coast Guard and gave them the position at which I had come across the boat. I don't know what happened then, neither do I care. The Coast Guard are equipped for these 'incidents' and know how to handle them and do so on a regular basis. Here is one example. Notice how the 'single use' dinghy is flexing.

"Heave to, get them aboard if you can, make sure anyone who needs first aid gets it and give the rest a cup of tea."
Sure you would....just tell us when you do it!

 

[Biggles Wader]

About twenty five years ago we were sailing in the Western Med and spotted a red flare. Went to investigate and found a rib with three blokes in who said they had broken down. We had a vhf but its effective range was about three miles so no one to call and we ended up towing them. It took us most of the day to get within range of the "authorities" who met us with a police lanch and towed the rib into port. We had given the three blokes some food and drink but they didnt leave their rib and when the police talked to us they were happy with that and told us the blokes were smugglers.Risky? Probably. Do the same again? Probably.

 

[GregOddity]

I don't know what happens in your part of the world but in the Central Mediterranean it happens all the time. Once I came across a small boat claiming that they had run out of fuel was outside of our territorial waters. This was outside of our territorial waters and I offered to give them a tow towards Malta. They were reluctant to accept a tow and insisted on being given fuel. There was no way that I was going to come alongside a boat loaded with young men who could have easily been illegal migrants. My priorities - regardless of whether legal, moral or rational - have always been (1) my boat, (2) my crew and (3) others.
Later, when I was within range, I contacted the Coast Guard and gave them the position at which I had come across the boat. I don't know what happened then, neither do I care. The Coast Guard are equipped for these 'incidents' and know how to handle them and do so on a regular basis. Here is one example. Notice how the 'single use' dinghy is flexing.

"Heave to, get them aboard if you can, make sure anyone who needs first aid gets it and give the rest a cup of tea."
Sure you would....just tell us when you do it!

Cases in the Med have no bearing with the situation here in the UK. The "large" groups of migrants in inflatable boats are 9 to 11 people as max on board with most being very small inflatables. Some have attempted in surfboards with 2 recorded fatalities and bodies found. There has been a Childs Inflatable with 2 migrants, 3 planks of wood nailed in a triangle with Styrofoam and a makeshift sail (rescued by French Navy) etc. The majority are Iranians that can afford the 3K + per person for a place on a dingy.

Notice how the inflatable is low on the water.

 

[steve yates]

Those of you talking about cable ties really need to think on!

Apart from the criminality of it, common sense would tell you that you cannot simply bring folk aboard and then grab them and try and restrain them with cable ties without being on the (well deserved) receiving end of resistance and violence. Especially, tired, cold frightened people, who may not even understand your language. Either bring them aboard properly and look after them, or leave them where they are, depending on your personal mix of judgement/bravery and humanity.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The question of numbers hasn't really arisen. A tiny vessel with a small number of occupants might be brought aboard. But Capricious is only 31' long, and except in dire emergency simply could not take the large numbers of occupants of some of the vessels pictured.

Of course, in practice we'd all assess the people concerned. A large group of young males is a different matter from a small group of mixed ages and sexes. And in the latter case, "women and children first" comes to mind. But equally, transferring people from a dinghy to Capricious would be an extremely hazardous undertaking at sea, even for experienced sailors. It might well be safer for people to remain in their dinghy until skilled assistance arrived.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I agree the once cross the channel should be mistaken for the once that crossing the Med .
The once that are crossing the Med some are escaping war zone other starvation
The once crossing the channel are neither, there in a country where there given shelter and food you just got to walk around them , most have a mobile phone and smart clothes and the only reason that want to cross the channel is because they think they be on a good thing once they get here .
I have a lot of simple with the once who escaping war zones and the EU should do all they can , but not much for the once who are going from country to country until they find one that suite them and will give them what they are looking for .


I'm not so sure when the time come there a dinghy with 20 guys and one women and one child anyone would .
there other ways to help without risking your own life and other on board as skipper are responsible for .

 

[GHA]

This But I do not want Oz to be culturally changed by migrants of other cultures.

Now that is funny.. ....

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

I do not want Oz to be culturally changed by migrants of other cultures.

You certainly have a point there.

The Aborigines probably felt then the same as you do now...

 

[Graham376]

keeping enough distance from shore not to temp anyone on board to jump overboard and try to swim to shore possibly creating a secondary emergency.

Problem is, if you pick up the wrong guys, you may be the one swimming for shore. Unless they were in the water, I wouldn't consider taking anyone aboard.