Latest 'stable door bolting' from MAIB

lw395 said:
Steering a high power yacht without an autopilot is a full time job. It would be foolish to rely on the helm being able to operate a plotter at the same time.
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I am happy to take your word for that. My point was that IF the helm has no navigational backup THEN additional information is required. From your helpful response I conclude that the IF shouldn't happen in the first place.
 
john_morris_uk said:
I'll repeat what others have said; if you think you're good enough, put yourself forward and have a go.
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Am I allowed to think harshly of the surgeons who killed all those babies in Bristol without having a go at some paediatric heart surgery myself?

My worry about the current YM scheme is that the something which was originally intended for people with a lot of experience is now so often taken by fast-track kids. Fine if they just want to work on a Russian mafioso's superyacht - how much experience does it take to dump an overdosed hooker's body over the side? - but perhaps less so when real responsibility results.
 
capnsensible said:
There are. Once again showing the problem of people who opine without bothering to spend a few seconds on Google.
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Your defence of the Clipper outfit is, as ever, admirable in its tenacity, but what has become clear of late is that what happens on their boats is not what they say happens. The big question is how well they knew that.
 
JumbleDuck said:
Am I allowed to think harshly of the surgeons who killed all those babies in Bristol without having a go at some paediatric heart surgery myself?

My worry about the current YM scheme is that the something which was originally intended for people with a lot of experience is now so often taken by fast-track kids. Fine if they just want to work on a Russian mafioso's superyacht - how much experience does it take to dump an overdosed hooker's body over the side? - but perhaps less so when real responsibility results.
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Most people in the trade who get YM, then get a job as 2nd man on a medium rich boy's boat, or deckhand on a serious rich boy's boat. Then they get experienced, do a lot of miles and work up to a nice cosy job in charge of a nice boat. The rich boys are not stupid, they employ agents to sort their staffing, everybody knows each other, it all works.

The pay'n'play bucket list operators are outside this system. They don't have the readies to hire a newly qualified YM as a deckhand or a No2. So people get pushed with all the certs but no miles on the clock. Then they have to deal with half bright/pushy/midlife crisis/random punters, not other pro's and an owner who wants to look after his Swan/Oyster/other shiny thing. Then there is the pressure of 'racing'.

There is a whole industry out there, in which YM works well. Don't damn that on account of a few sloppy operators at the fringes.
 
lw395 said:
There is a whole industry out there, in which YM works well. Don't damn that on account of a few sloppy operators at the fringes.
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I think we're agreeing, that Fast Track YM Commercial is best seen as a very basic qualification. Fine as a starting point for real experience, not fine - in general - as a basis for taking full responsibility. Quite apart from this incident, I can think of two other recent ones in which decisions made by Fast Track YMs led to multiple fatalities.
 
JumbleDuck said:
... Quite apart from this incident, I can think of two other recent ones in which decisions made by Fast Track YMs led to multiple fatalities.
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I might have missed the thread of this particular digression, but this wasn't a fast track YM. The guy had many years of experience including substantial racing experience and training experience with even more novice crews on these boats. I doubt you could find a better qualified person to be in charge. People are underestimating the crew as well, many of them aren't newbies, and have lots of sailing experience, certainly as much as most in this forum.

This is really just the classic racing cock up, yachts holding the tack for as long as they dare to gain advantage then fluffing the turn (for fluff it they did) and running aground. Easily done when the blood's up.

Clipper could mitigate this by slapping a time penalty on boats that get within ten miles of a hazard or less than 20m depth, providing pressure to make the turn far before the ground forces it and easily applied from the GPS track at the end of the leg.

I'm also not convinced having another pro on board would have made a difference. They would likely have been assigned to the other watch and so would have been resting when this happened as there was no hint of trouble for them to be summoned before the incident. A dedicated nav watch maybe, but that'd be a pig of a job, stuck below watching a screen for hours on end.
 
JumbleDuck said:
I think we're agreeing, that Fast Track YM Commercial is best seen as a very basic qualification. Fine as a starting point for real experience, not fine - in general - as a basis for taking full responsibility. Quite apart from this incident, I can think of two other recent ones in which decisions made by Fast Track YMs led to multiple fatalities.
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Link?
 
JumbleDuck said:
Your defence of the Clipper outfit is, as ever, admirable in its tenacity, but what has become clear of late is that what happens on their boats is not what they say happens. The big question is how well they knew that.
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Best you don't do the race. What was the result of your email to them pointing out their deficiencies?
 
JumbleDuck said:
Am I allowed to think harshly of the surgeons who killed all those babies in Bristol without having a go at some paediatric heart surgery myself?

My worry about the current YM scheme is that the something which was originally intended for people with a lot of experience is now so often taken by fast-track kids. Fine if they just want to work on a Russian mafioso's superyacht - how much experience does it take to dump an overdosed hooker's body over the side? - but perhaps less so when real responsibility results.
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I suspect this post was slightly tongue in cheek, but to address the first point - it would seem you have minimal understanding of the factors involved in the paediatric cardiac surgery issues faced in Bristol (20 years ago).

To address the second point - it doesn't matter how the candidate acquired their sea miles or did their YM training - the exam is the same. If you have an opinion that the pre-requsites for the YM exam or the exam itself are not suitable qualifications for skippering an Offshore Race boat then fair enough. But I think it's a bit unfair to specifically call out fast track courses as being lacking for YM or that a YM gained from a fast track is basic whereas YM gained from slow track isn't. . As you're aware, the YM exam does not distinguish between candidates who have acquired sea-time, knowledge and experience via fast track vs slow track. It's all down to how the candidate performs on the day - just like any other test.
 
Indeed, a professional and well polished report as you would imagine from the MAIB.

If I had written it (and I do have experience of such things) I would have said ' should've gybed earlier' and saved a lot of paper.
 
Well, reading the report says and, perhaps more importantly, what it implies, my conclusion is that the crews, taken overall, seem to be muddling through, rather than being on top of things and the management aren't any better.

If anyone I know were considering doing a leg or two with them, unless he or she was a very experienced sailor, I'd recommend against it.
 
RobF said:
To address the second point - it doesn't matter how the candidate acquired their sea miles or did their YM training - the exam is the same. If you have an opinion that the pre-requsites for the YM exam or the exam itself are not suitable qualifications for skippering an Offshore Race boat then fair enough. But I think it's a bit unfair to specifically call out fast track courses as being lacking for YM or that a YM gained from a fast track is basic whereas YM gained from slow track isn't.
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Problem is, there are fair weather sailors who meet the passage and hours criteria but have never been out in truly testing conditions. The weekend I did my YM exam, it took place in the Solent with winds around F4-F5 so the examiner had no idea how I would cope with nasty conditions.

Same problem applies with amateur aviation. I failed a few "flat site" pilots having check flights at our hill site gliding club. Despite lots of hours experience some couldn't cope when wave rota was on the hill and not fit to fly solo.
 
I would recommend that it would be a good idea, before making a decision, to go look at the yachts, talk to people who have done it and to the trainers. And have a day or two out on the boat.

And gybe earlier.
 
Stemar said:
Well, reading the report says and, perhaps more importantly, what it implies, my conclusion is that the crews, taken overall, seem to be muddling through, rather than being on top of things and the management aren't any better.

If anyone I know were considering doing a leg or two with them, unless he or she was a very experienced sailor, I'd recommend against it.
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And if he or she is very experienced, they'd be well advised to rent a boat and go off on their own! It'd be far safer.
 
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