"Last Call" accident report published
- Thread starter Observer
- Start date
SeaDave
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
How not to do it.
A terrifying read for a new boater like me.
How not to do it.
A terrifying read for a new boater like me.
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
Very sad.
I hope those three souls will forgive me if I smiled while reading that RCD compliance is mentioned as one of the relevant matters behind the accident.
A shining example of bureaucracy, if I've ever seen one.
Very sad.
I hope those three souls will forgive me if I smiled while reading that RCD compliance is mentioned as one of the relevant matters behind the accident.
A shining example of bureaucracy, if I've ever seen one.
Magnum
RIP
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
Tragic loss of life.
Tragic loss of life.
fireball
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
I had a quick flick through - as far as I can see it wouldn't have mattered what leisure craft you were in or how compliant it was - that was not the day to go out of the harbour .... unfortunately IMHO it was down to stupidity / lack of experience.
I stand by the stupidity statement as they were adults and should know to look at what you're letting yourself in for before going to sea.
I had a quick flick through - as far as I can see it wouldn't have mattered what leisure craft you were in or how compliant it was - that was not the day to go out of the harbour .... unfortunately IMHO it was down to stupidity / lack of experience.
I stand by the stupidity statement as they were adults and should know to look at what you're letting yourself in for before going to sea.
Mattwalker
Active Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
What an awful thing to happen, and so close to land. Mind you looking at the photos of the sea just outside the harbour there is just no way i would of even thought about going out in that!
Just goes to show what effect a lack of experience/training can have on people.
Very sad
What an awful thing to happen, and so close to land. Mind you looking at the photos of the sea just outside the harbour there is just no way i would of even thought about going out in that!
Just goes to show what effect a lack of experience/training can have on people.
Very sad
colingr
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
Quite, tragic loss of life but highlights the need for common sense before going out. From the sea state I would suspect most commercial boats would hesitate before heading out, let alone a small cruiser like that.
Quite, tragic loss of life but highlights the need for common sense before going out. From the sea state I would suspect most commercial boats would hesitate before heading out, let alone a small cruiser like that.
mjf
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
Thanks for the link.
I know that harbour and the entrance is indeed difficult in foul weather.
Tragic story - there a lot of local folk about who would have offered advice etc to new boaters , in this case even the RNLB tried to warn of the danger.
Frankly - even a walk along the breakwater beforehand would have been enough warning on this coast.
Thanks for the link.
I know that harbour and the entrance is indeed difficult in foul weather.
Tragic story - there a lot of local folk about who would have offered advice etc to new boaters , in this case even the RNLB tried to warn of the danger.
Frankly - even a walk along the breakwater beforehand would have been enough warning on this coast.
laser_jock99
Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
Looking at the photo's of the sea conditions in the report- it was clearly fool hardy to venture out in a small craft. The crew were inexperienced and it was only their second trip in that boat- not the right time or place to be testing the seakeeping qualities. The sad outcome is unsurprising.
Looking at the photo's of the sea conditions in the report- it was clearly fool hardy to venture out in a small craft. The crew were inexperienced and it was only their second trip in that boat- not the right time or place to be testing the seakeeping qualities. The sad outcome is unsurprising.
Wiggo
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
Never mind the photos of the waves - the photo of the Trent class AWB is enough to show how mad they were.
I know the report criticised their US PFDs, but without sprayhoods I doubt even 275N jackets would have helped in those seas. How much difference would training have made, I wonder? PB1 doesn't cover common sense, does it...
Never mind the photos of the waves - the photo of the Trent class AWB is enough to show how mad they were.
I know the report criticised their US PFDs, but without sprayhoods I doubt even 275N jackets would have helped in those seas. How much difference would training have made, I wonder? PB1 doesn't cover common sense, does it...
hlb
RIP
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
Course, there may be a simple explanation. In a harbour like Whitby, it can feel quite calm. How many of us just go out for a look see. Happened once to me in Troon. Evything seemed very calm. Then in the narrow entrance, it turned rough. Had to go out, inorder to turn round.
Just trying to explain, in those sort of harbours, the change can be very sudden and not easy to turn round.
Course, there may be a simple explanation. In a harbour like Whitby, it can feel quite calm. How many of us just go out for a look see. Happened once to me in Troon. Evything seemed very calm. Then in the narrow entrance, it turned rough. Had to go out, inorder to turn round.
Just trying to explain, in those sort of harbours, the change can be very sudden and not easy to turn round.
StewartC
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
Interesting recommendations. Am trying to get confirmation but it reads as though the DfT wants local authorities to enforce compliance with the RCD.
At the moment this is the responsibility of Trading Standards.
"In conjunction with HMRC, seek to develop procedures whereby HMRC can notify local authorities of the import of recreational leisure craft into the Community market. This is to enable local authorities to conduct such checks as they deem necessary to ensure that individuals and companies importing such craft comply with the Recreational Craft Directive and that non CE marked craft undergo a Post-Construction Assessment."
Interesting recommendations. Am trying to get confirmation but it reads as though the DfT wants local authorities to enforce compliance with the RCD.
At the moment this is the responsibility of Trading Standards.
"In conjunction with HMRC, seek to develop procedures whereby HMRC can notify local authorities of the import of recreational leisure craft into the Community market. This is to enable local authorities to conduct such checks as they deem necessary to ensure that individuals and companies importing such craft comply with the Recreational Craft Directive and that non CE marked craft undergo a Post-Construction Assessment."
hlb
RIP
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
Wont make much difference to a boat with neither captain or crew, will it.
Wont make much difference to a boat with neither captain or crew, will it.
Nautical
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
Interesting reading and some valid recommendations, I would hesitate to attach any significance to the RCD catagory and that perhaps the skipper would have taken note that his boat would not be suitable for the conditions if marked 'C' . In this instance I doubt he would have made that call, conditions were such within the harbour not to lead him to think there was such horrendous conditions outside (although he should have checked) and in any event would an inexperienced skipper be able to tell what was a 2m wave or a three metre wave. Even if the conditions were within the wave height of C it still would have been pretty bad outside with short steep waves with breaking crests. If he had bought a later model that was catagory B it still would have made no difference to the outcome, small boat, lightish weight, inexperience skipper and crew, horrible conditions, inevitable outcome.
Seems more a case of find a way to blame the manufacturer or the commercial testing house, add more legislation, more inspections, more paperwork and more jobs for the authorities, more empire!. From what I have read it is a simple case of error of judgement and inexperience and we have all been guilty of that somewhere along the way, no way to legislate for such when one is considering the actions and mentality of human beings, mind you doesn't stop them trying of course. In fairness to the skipper he appears to have a least started some sort of learning curve with the various downloads and videos he had read on boat safety and boat handling and indeed the local boat yard manager confirms he was asking the right questions and keen to learn and understand about his boat, unfortunately he appears to have tried to run before he could walk. Very sad indeed.
Interesting reading and some valid recommendations, I would hesitate to attach any significance to the RCD catagory and that perhaps the skipper would have taken note that his boat would not be suitable for the conditions if marked 'C' . In this instance I doubt he would have made that call, conditions were such within the harbour not to lead him to think there was such horrendous conditions outside (although he should have checked) and in any event would an inexperienced skipper be able to tell what was a 2m wave or a three metre wave. Even if the conditions were within the wave height of C it still would have been pretty bad outside with short steep waves with breaking crests. If he had bought a later model that was catagory B it still would have made no difference to the outcome, small boat, lightish weight, inexperience skipper and crew, horrible conditions, inevitable outcome.
Seems more a case of find a way to blame the manufacturer or the commercial testing house, add more legislation, more inspections, more paperwork and more jobs for the authorities, more empire!. From what I have read it is a simple case of error of judgement and inexperience and we have all been guilty of that somewhere along the way, no way to legislate for such when one is considering the actions and mentality of human beings, mind you doesn't stop them trying of course. In fairness to the skipper he appears to have a least started some sort of learning curve with the various downloads and videos he had read on boat safety and boat handling and indeed the local boat yard manager confirms he was asking the right questions and keen to learn and understand about his boat, unfortunately he appears to have tried to run before he could walk. Very sad indeed.
epervier
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
A truely tragic loss of life, albeit, through ignorance, as I read it. 25 foot boat in 4-6 metre water,you'd think they would have stayed in the calm of the marina?
I don't like it if it blows more than 12kts in the Solent!!
A truely tragic loss of life, albeit, through ignorance, as I read it. 25 foot boat in 4-6 metre water,you'd think they would have stayed in the calm of the marina?
I don't like it if it blows more than 12kts in the Solent!!
Take5
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
Thanks for the link to the report.
I recall reading about this accident on here shortly after it happened. I am still new to boating and at the time of the accident I hadn't even took our boat on the water. It frightened me somewhat.
It's a terrible thing that happened but unless like Haydn says and you get caught out in certain harbours. I cannot understand what on earth made all 3 of them think it was OK to go out in such conditions.
It's a crying shame what happened when ultimately they was just trying to enjoy the boat for one last time before putting her away for the winter.
Rest In Peace.
Thanks for the link to the report.
I recall reading about this accident on here shortly after it happened. I am still new to boating and at the time of the accident I hadn't even took our boat on the water. It frightened me somewhat.
It's a terrible thing that happened but unless like Haydn says and you get caught out in certain harbours. I cannot understand what on earth made all 3 of them think it was OK to go out in such conditions.
It's a crying shame what happened when ultimately they was just trying to enjoy the boat for one last time before putting her away for the winter.
Rest In Peace.
JKay
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
Thanks for the link
Its tragic and requires no further response for me
Cheers Joe
Thanks for the link
Its tragic and requires no further response for me
Cheers Joe
Elessar
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
Truly tragic. You read it and want to shout to them to turn back. One would hope that a tragedy like this would help others to learn, and it should make bodies like the MAIB promulgate that information.
But no.
It seems the MAIB wants to be able to say - "look it had a category C, told you so - stupid people". Just like saying "warning contents are hot" on a coffee cup.
The RCD is b0ll0cks and would have made no difference, nor would the owners manual. or compulsory training. These people would have ignored them all. So would I but I got lucky when I got hit by my first big wave and built up a thing called experience.
If the owner hadn't been scared of the rules, he may even have turned his VHF on. And not be dead.
I don't know what the answer is, but I am certain that more rules will just make it worse. Lets hope that one of us, the lucky ones that have learned the hard way, are in a berth next to the next newbie and that we are able to offer our advice. Or that you advise me before I do something stupid, and for some reason I listen.
Lets all tell the story of Last Call. It might help and those poor people will have achieved something.
Truly tragic. You read it and want to shout to them to turn back. One would hope that a tragedy like this would help others to learn, and it should make bodies like the MAIB promulgate that information.
But no.
It seems the MAIB wants to be able to say - "look it had a category C, told you so - stupid people". Just like saying "warning contents are hot" on a coffee cup.
The RCD is b0ll0cks and would have made no difference, nor would the owners manual. or compulsory training. These people would have ignored them all. So would I but I got lucky when I got hit by my first big wave and built up a thing called experience.
If the owner hadn't been scared of the rules, he may even have turned his VHF on. And not be dead.
I don't know what the answer is, but I am certain that more rules will just make it worse. Lets hope that one of us, the lucky ones that have learned the hard way, are in a berth next to the next newbie and that we are able to offer our advice. Or that you advise me before I do something stupid, and for some reason I listen.
Lets all tell the story of Last Call. It might help and those poor people will have achieved something.
CSFenwick
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
Surely the MAIB are just pointing out that inexperienced people might look at the RCD category to help guide them as to what their craft is capable of during their rise up the learning curve. We'll never know what effect it might have had here, but if the skipper did think it was 'B' and that indicated F8 was OK, then that might have affected his judgement. The forecast was F7-F8 reducing to F5 or F6 – if you firmly believe your boat is OK in F8 then that forecast might not concern you as much as it should. If it had been 'C' there's a possibility he might have thought twice. Of course the actual conditions were on the edge for something that would easily make 'A' (like the AW lifeboat) but that's not the point. The error was in the skipper’s judgement and just maybe the belief that the boat could handle F8 gave him the confidence he should never have had. It surely can’t be a bad thing to highlight that boats of all types might have an RCD category higher than they really should? One wonders whether the this type of misplaced confidence had any bearing on the tragedy off Puffin Island two years ago when a young boy and his grandfather died when a small sailboat found itself in far more extreme conditions than it was capable of handling and the subsequent MAIB investigation revealed its RCD was far higher than it should have been.
Surely the MAIB are just pointing out that inexperienced people might look at the RCD category to help guide them as to what their craft is capable of during their rise up the learning curve. We'll never know what effect it might have had here, but if the skipper did think it was 'B' and that indicated F8 was OK, then that might have affected his judgement. The forecast was F7-F8 reducing to F5 or F6 – if you firmly believe your boat is OK in F8 then that forecast might not concern you as much as it should. If it had been 'C' there's a possibility he might have thought twice. Of course the actual conditions were on the edge for something that would easily make 'A' (like the AW lifeboat) but that's not the point. The error was in the skipper’s judgement and just maybe the belief that the boat could handle F8 gave him the confidence he should never have had. It surely can’t be a bad thing to highlight that boats of all types might have an RCD category higher than they really should? One wonders whether the this type of misplaced confidence had any bearing on the tragedy off Puffin Island two years ago when a young boy and his grandfather died when a small sailboat found itself in far more extreme conditions than it was capable of handling and the subsequent MAIB investigation revealed its RCD was far higher than it should have been.
fireball
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Last Call\" accident report published
RCD is a red herring - if the lifeboat cancelled the launch of the inshore lifeboat because it was too dangerous then it was far too dangerous for pretty much anyone to attempt to leave harbour.
I have no idea what RCD category my boat is (I suspect C, but it could be B) but through experience I know what I can handle - and the boat is more capable than me ... I wouldn't dream of going out in those conditions in any vessel ... hats off to the LB boys though!
RCD is a red herring - if the lifeboat cancelled the launch of the inshore lifeboat because it was too dangerous then it was far too dangerous for pretty much anyone to attempt to leave harbour.
I have no idea what RCD category my boat is (I suspect C, but it could be B) but through experience I know what I can handle - and the boat is more capable than me ... I wouldn't dream of going out in those conditions in any vessel ... hats off to the LB boys though!
