Laminate Sails

[jimi]

Definitely get more sense!

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[dralex]

OK- where from?

<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now.

 

[MainlySteam]

Not sure there would be much difference myself, speaking honestly. As Jimi is right next door I am surprised that he has let our secret out though - nice of them to let us out for weekend sailing leave though so they obviously don't know - whoops, think /forums/images/icons/blush.gif - that we are dangerous.

John

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[MainlySteam]

Err, reminds me - have they found twisted oops Twisterken yet?

John

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[jimi]

Aye .. but you should see the boat they're giving us .. its made out of an old raincoat,Twisterken and several guards .. currently curing above the boiler hee heee heee

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[Robin]

I don't think it is restricted to cheap boats either over here. Some boats are sold with designer label sails, but they sure aren't the ones you would buy if you ordered sails yourself from the same lofts. These sails are built down to a price, labour costs for the same cut are pretty much the same irrespective of the cloth, so the only thing to cut costs on is the cloth and the fittings, though no doubt the trainee machinists get to try out on these sails as well.

I am fanatatical about getting the BEST I can and will pay for that if it is justified, but I will not pay double for the same suit in the same cut just cos it has a designer label. When we ordered new sails I spent some time with our sailmaker (and others) going through all the options of cuts and cloths and discussing the pros and cons of each and every combination, then priced each option. There is no one size fits all answer IMO because each boat and each owner will have different needs and different priorities. I believe that in our case on a 41ft Cruiser/Racer with a tall masthead rig the sail loadings mean that to retain shape IMO we had to look beyond basic Dacron but on a 34 footer the loads are different so the choices wider. When we bought our boat the existing North laminate genoa (6yrs old) was totally knackered, however the North Dacron mainsail was 'OK' and did 2 more seasons before being replaced this year because mostly the cost of repairs needed to a rotted lufftape and shelf foot was better put towards a new sail. In our case I believe the compromise of a top quality Dacron with Spectra woven into it at 6mm or so intervals in both warp and weft (Hydranet, from Dimension Polyant) was the best choice compromise for shape retention and long life, had we been primarily racers with a bottomless wallet then a different compromise might have been chosen. One thing that did influence my thinking though is that I notice a number of our local hotshots swap their hi-tech race sails for Dacron when just cruising or even for club races, this was very noticeable after the Round The Island Race with much sail swapping activity on the pontoons afterwards and noticeable again on those leaving for Cork Week with their hi-tech race sails following them by car!

One other factor IMO is if possible to use a (recommended) local sailmaker who will actually visit the boat and take measurements and take into account things like the genoa track adjustment available, mast pre-bend, sailcontrol gear etc. I couldn't get some of the 'names' to do that even when I was buying a full suit of headsails and mainsail for racing some years back, they would make to the IOR Certificate. Well luckily I didn't take up their kind offer of double the price and went locally, otherwise I would have had a #1 genoa too long in the luff. Local sailmakers have local reputations to maintain, word of a bad sail or service gets around rapidly and none will want to see their sails consistantly at the back of the fleet!




<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[dralex]

I like the idea of trying local sailmakers. Our main is a few seasons old and made by Osen in Plymouth. It is still a great sail and makes all the shapes I want- it was obviously designed well. I'll give them a call. Interesting note about the stresses on proportionally larger sails- that makes a lot of sense- logically that means if you get a slightly heavier good quality radial dacron sail, it should last pretty well and any stretch should be very gradual and not make a huge difference.

<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now.

 

[Robin]

As I understand it that is pretty much correct, but that there is a limit to that approach somewhere around the size of our boat & our sails where for shape rather than longevity some extra help is required, which in our case is provided by the Spectra Hydranet. Also I believe if we didn't have the reduced stretch of the Hydranet Dacron we could not then have had the triradial cut for either the roller genoa or the mainsail, that a crosscut would have been required. Tri radial cut at least in our sizes apparently requires stretch characteristics of the cloth which are not available in normal Dacrons.

IMHO if you have a frank discussion with your sailmaker about your real expectations (and wallet!) you will end up with something close to your personal ideal, I don't think there is a 'stock' answer.



<hr width=100% size=1><font size=1>Sermons from my pulpit are with tongue firmly in cheek and come with no warranty!</font size=1>

 

[bedouin]

The other option worth considering is "Vectran" - that is a woven fabric like Dacron but uses a higher quality fibre. They are considerably more expensive than Dacron or the low end of the Cruiser Laminates but they last for ever. If you want the ultimate in durability then I don't think anything can touch it.

I went through the options in some detail a couple of seasons ago and decided for what I want good quality dacron was the best solution.



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[dralex]

I must say, I'm seeing the sense in a well made good quality dacron. Thanks for the advice Robin and Bedouin. As for the others, can you make sure that you always speak in a Scottish accent on the forum, just so I don't get confused and think the internet wire goes as far as NZ.

<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now.

 

[rwoofer]

I had a new tri-radial main and genoa made from Pentex, which seems to look and feel like Dacron. Apparently it is a laminate, but has dacron on both sides for protection and durability.

From the literature I saw on the cloth, it seems to be about 3 times better at stretch resistance than dacron. Although this is a big improvement it is still considerably less than the real hi-tech racing laminates.

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[Aja]

You don't normally send whiskey to a Scotsman ('specially named Jimi.)

Regards

Donald

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[mhouse]

Just purchased a Stobstad Laminate for my Dehler 31 (I think your 34s rig is not much bigger) Fantastic sail and worth every penny holds the shape well and with the foamluff on Harken roller does go to windward furled. The down side is the material is heavy and wierd green colour the uv strip is a thick canvas . Production is now in China so prices may now get more sensible. Lookong at getting the main this autumn.

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[uforea]

Laminate sails are not neccesarily " faster " than Dacron ones. How fast the sail is depends on how the sailmaker designs it and puts it all together. The Laminate sail will hold it's shape, good or bad, for much longer than it's Dacron equivalent. With a Dacron sail it is possible to tweak the shape to suit the wind conditions at the time by streching the cloth using Halyards etc. The laminate sail is not as flexible in this respect because it is more difficult to distort the basic shape. I have bought Sobstad Genesis and Doyle Bainbridge Diax and have had good service from both. The Sobstad sail is a lighter material than the Doyle and so is better suited to light airs. Laminates do not like to be folded so roll them up whenever possible. I have used these sails for 8 years now and have no regrets at all. The shape of the sails is still a joy to behold and I don't anticipate having to replace any of them for some years yet. I have a 30ft boat and the prices from both companies was very similar, Furling Genoa with foam luff etc £1500 and the Main with all the usual bits and pieces loose footed was £1200.

Ted.

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[MainlySteam]

Ahhh, but it is NZ whiskey.

Whence is a little story in that they started making whiskey here around 1970's or so, tried it and was passable but not a touch on the real stuff. I thought they had gone out of production but a while back saw some on the shelf in the duty free - people with no taste, like Jimi, like it (mind you that is only because his throat is whiskey shot like Janis Joplin's was) so that is what I send but decanted into my empty real bottles.

John

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[Aja]

Cunning ploy.

Could only learn that one 'inside'.

Donald

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