Knots for a modified jorda series drogue

[stav]

Hi, happy new year! Used to be here quite a lot but haven't forvrious middle ge man reasons but it I get to be posting a question! I m having a go t making a drouge as below.

Series Drogue

I have nearly made the 20 cones and went to add them to the 200' feet of secondhand 18mm brid on braid. However I would like to add a hard eye at each end. I have tried cleaning the rope, soakinh4i hot water etc but I don't think I can splice it. So was after suggestions for knots o make an eye then whip in place a stainless steel thimble. Hope that makes sense?

Any suggestion for good knots etc to make the eye. No 8ntention of undoing them and could addsome stitching?

Thanks for any ideas?

 

[Boathook]

Would bar tacking do ?
Bar tacking

 

[Aeolus]

I'm not an expert on Jordan Series Drogues but I did read a lot about them a while back. I'm not sure that the modified version described in the OP's link will work in the conditions that Jordan designed his drogue for. The rationale for having 100 plus cones on a very long length of rope was so that the drogue would grip over multiple wave lengths, thus providing a continuous braking effect rather than an intermittent effect with associated snatching. Reducing the number of cones (albeit larger ones) and shortening the rope may make it less effective in the storm conditions that Jordan had in mind. I would be very wary of modifying a design that was conceived and tested over many years and that has been successfully used in extreme conditions.

 

[arcot]

Use dyneema / spectra to make drogue fit in a smaller space for storage......

 

[PlankWalker]

A knot was the downfall of Suzy Goodall's series drogue, leading to the loss of her Rustler in the Southern Ocean.
I have no knots in my series drogue, just Brummel splices and stainless thimbles.
Things have moved on since Don Jordan's day, We have Dyneema now.

 

[Aeolus]

I'd have thought that the stretchiness of older ropes would be an advantage in a drogue. Other than being able to store it in a smaller space, what other advantages would dyneema confer?

 

[Poey50]

I'd have thought that the stretchiness of older ropes would be an advantage in a drogue. Other than being able to store it in a smaller space, what other advantages would dyneema confer?

Stretch is undesirable in a drogue so dyneema being lighter, thinner, non-stretch, and easy to thread the drogue tapes and to splice makes it nearly ideal. The downside is it's slippery surface making retrieval problematic. Suitably spaced stopper knots for a retrieval prussik knot to grip offer a solution.

 

[AndrewB]

Stretch is undesirable in a drogue so dyneema being lighter, thinner, non-stretch, and easy to thread the drogue tapes and to splice makes it nearly ideal. The downside is it's slippery surface making retrieval problematic. Suitably spaced stopper knots for a retrieval prussik knot to grip offer a solution.

I made a series drogue many years ago, with the four tapes of each individual drogue spliced into the rope and stitched. I'm not sure why stretch is undesirable, as in use the drogue is not continuously taut, but rather tends to snatch, the load seemingly falling on different drogues in turn. For this reason they need to be strongly attached. I used a conventional 12mm pre-stretched 3-strand rope, for ease of splicing. Recovery was really not as hard as many people suggest: it could normally be pulled in by (gloved) hand. However mine was only 70m long and had fewer drogues than a proper Jordan series drogue as I never completed it. Nevertheless, it was an invaluable asset going downwind in big seas. It meant steering could be left to the wind-vane and the two crew could seek shelter below.

 

[thinwater]

I made a series drogue many years ago, with the four tapes of each individual drogue spliced into the rope and stitched. I'm not sure why stretch is undesirable, as in use the drogue is not continuously taut, but rather tends to snatch, the load seemingly falling on different drogues in turn. For this reason they need to be strongly attached. I used a conventional 12mm pre-stretched 3-strand rope, for ease of splicing. Recovery was really not as hard as many people suggest: it could normally be pulled in by (gloved) hand. However mine was only 70m long and had fewer drogues than a proper Jordan series drogue as I never completed it. Nevertheless, it was an invaluable asset going downwind in big seas. It meant steering could be left to the wind-vane and the two crew could seek shelter below.

What did you use for a tail weight?

A JSD made with fewer drogues will behave differently for complex reasons (both the boat speed and the curve of the drogue string). It is probably best not to draw dirrect comparisons, since the design was fundamentally altered. It sounds like it worked for you, but it is a different thing.

The argument against nylon is well understood and proven; the stretch of nylon allows the boat to begin to surf before the drogue can catch it, and then there is recoil. However, there is no data, engineering or field, that addresses the relative benefits of low-stretch and no-stretch (unless someone can post it). There is not likely to be differentiating field experience either, since survival experiences are few and the situations are always different.

Polyester may have dynamic advantages and is easier to recover, but Dyneema is more practical, and one of Jordan's guiding principles was to develop something practical enough that people would actually use it. That is a big vote in favor of Dyneema.

 

[AndrewB]

What did you use for a tail weight?

As I recall, a couple of metres of 10mm chain.

Before the series drogue came along, we used to trail a couple of plain ropes with weights on the end, as was recommended in early editions of "Heavy Weather Sailing", and even that worked fairly well. So my guess is anything is better than nothing, though some pioneers (e.g. Moitessier) rejected the method. However, hull shape must surely make a difference. I've no experience of trailing warps in an open ocean gale aboard a modern fin-keel design.

 

[Wansworth]

As I recall, a couple of metres of 10mm chain.

Before the series drogue came along, we used to trail a couple of plain ropes with weights on the end, as was recommended in early editions of "Heavy Weather Sailing", and even that worked fairly well. So my guess is anything is better than nothing, though some pioneers (e.g. Moitessier) rejected the method. However, hull shape must surely make a difference. I've no experience of trailing warps in an open ocean gale aboard a modern fin-keel design.

I think Motessier saw a storm at sea in several parts in the begining ropesetc to slow the boat but as it became too much he cut it all loose and ran before it …….from comfort of sofa

 

[thinwater]

As I recall, a couple of metres of 10mm chain.

Before the series drogue came along, we used to trail a couple of plain ropes with weights on the end, as was recommended in early editions of "Heavy Weather Sailing", and even that worked fairly well. So my guess is anything is better than nothing, though some pioneers (e.g. Moitessier) rejected the method. However, hull shape must surely make a difference. I've no experience of trailing warps in an open ocean gale aboard a modern fin-keel design.

That is only about 1/2 the recomended tail weight of 15-20 pounds, and may well acount for some of the surging. the purpose of the weight is to keep the tail down, but also to take up slack. Insufficient tail weight has been associated with under-performance of drogues.

 

[AndrewB]

That is only about 1/2 the recomended tail weight of 15-20 pounds, and may well acount for some of the surging. the purpose of the weight is to keep the tail down, but also to take up slack. Insufficient tail weight has been associated with under-performance of drogues.

Sounds like I'm lucky to be alive!

 

[Aeolus]

Sounds like I'm lucky to be alive!

Aren't we all!

 

[thinwater]

Sounds like I'm lucky to be alive!

Not hardly. Jordan's design was for a once -in-a-lifetime survival storm, whereas most will be used, to good benifit, in merely very bad weather. I've used a Sea Brake drogue in "bad" weather just to calm things down and to delay arrival until both morning and calmer weather. Not a survival situation, not by a long stretch, but a nice way to ease and slow things. Also, multihulls don't like to heave to (steep waves near the beam are very uncomfortable).

 

[stav]

Sorry for not participating sooner (back to work chaos). Thanks for all the replies and comments. I have a westerly Conway which I run on a very tight budget but as retirement is only two years away I have started beavering on longer term projects. If I am lucky (eye sight holding up) I would like to do an Atlantic circuit in 2025and perhaps go to Ireland or Spain this summer/next. The materials I am using are what is around. I already have 50m of 18mm braid on braid and and another 30m 14mm. So that is what I will use, would use dyneema but simply cannot afford it. I will use some 18mm three strand nylon for attachment to the boat to offer some shock absorbing. Looks like I will be using a double fisherman's loop for the thimble and eye at the end of each of the braided lines

P123 (RYA knots)
with some sewn bar tacking to hold in the tail of the knot. Then iciccle knots and a bit of sewing to hold the webbing to the lines.

To complete the picture I will fasten to cleats on the stern and then add braid on braid lines from these to the main winches to help shoulder the load. (Not ideal again but they are quite chunky homemade stainless steel cleats. And not heading to the southern ocean yet!

I think I agree with the sentiment it might not be perfect but could be better than nothing if really needed. I hope to be able to mostly heave to if I need to pause for a time. But in reality I am expecting 15knts of breeze on a beam reach and 30^C all the time??

Thank you for the thoughts.

 

[thinwater]

In fact, thimbles, and specifically cable thimbles, are NOT suggested in JSDs. The reason is that at high load they are known to rotate and chafe the line. Sailmaker's or closed thimbles are recommended on the bridle, and the rest of the rode should connect using luggage tags (interlocked splices). No knots, since they weaken the rope critically and have failed in actual service (Google "Goodall" and Clipper").

Cable thimbles are best reserved for steel cable, for which they were designed. I've seen many cases of cable thimbles shifting and causing harm.

[This image is from a well-spliced JSD bridle]

 

[Roberto]

And this is a commercial JSD, what's left of it; in my opinion there is still something to be learned about making them.

 

[AndrewB]

I think I agree with the sentiment it might not be perfect but could be better than nothing if really needed. I hope to be able to mostly heave to if I need to pause for a time. But in reality I am expecting 15knts of breeze on a beam reach and 30^C all the time??

That's what we all expect! And with the huge improvements in long-range weather forecasting, hitting really bad conditions can nowadays often - but not always - be avoided.

Whatever heavy-weather methods you decide on, it is crucial to test them before they are needed in earnest. Any yacht will heave-to nicely in an F4-5 and calm seas. Try in F6 and 3m swells. It's ticklish to get the sails reefed and set just right so the yacht sticks at about 60° to the wind and fore-reaches at no more than a knot or so. Once you are in a gale, and have to retrieve the storm jib from the depths of the sail locker, then scramble onto the foredeck to hoist it and secure sheets correctly - well if you haven't practiced, you won't do it. (The big plus of a drogue is that it can be deployed without leaving the cockpit, but in a real gale you need a lot sea-room downwind).

In practice, the great majority of yachts that do not have a thoroughly tested heavy-weather method simply down sails and lie a-hull. This is certainly far more uncomfortable for the crew than trailing a drogue or heaving-to, and is deplored by 'the authorities' as risking capsize.

Yet yachts do get by that way. In 2005 several trans-Atlantic yachts were caught out by "Vince", a late-season cat 1 hurricane that formed in the eastern Atlantic. Four subsequently went into Porto Santo (Madeira), where I interviewed the others. We were the only ones to have used an active method (but had been rather ahead of the storm), the other three had all just laid a-hull. The experienced delivery skipper of a Beneteau 441 said that he had tried to heave-to, "but the yacht would not take it and kept running off at 6 kts". Most remarkably, one yacht was a 30' Wharram Cat. The exhausted single-hander told me "I laid on the deck with one hand on the dinghy and the other on the tiller, and prayed not to be tipped over, at least until morning". No yachts were lost.

 

[Neeves]

Sorry for not participating sooner (back to work chaos). Thanks for all the replies and comments. I have a westerly Conway which I run on a very tight budget but as retirement is only two years away I have started beavering on longer term projects. If I am lucky (eye sight holding up) I would like to do an Atlantic circuit in 2025and perhaps go to Ireland or Spain this summer/next. The materials I am using are what is around. I already have 50m of 18mm braid on braid and and another 30m 14mm. So that is what I will use, would use dyneema but simply cannot afford it. I will use some 18mm three strand nylon for attachment to the boat to offer some shock absorbing. Looks like I will be using a double fisherman's loop for the thimble and eye at the end of each of the braided lines

P123 (RYA knots)
with some sewn bar tacking to hold in the tail of the knot. Then iciccle knots and a bit of sewing to hold the webbing to the lines.

To complete the picture I will fasten to cleats on the stern and then add braid on braid lines from these to the main winches to help shoulder the load. (Not ideal again but they are quite chunky homemade stainless steel cleats. And not heading to the southern ocean yet!

I think I agree with the sentiment it might not be perfect but could be better than nothing if really needed. I hope to be able to mostly heave to if I need to pause for a time. But in reality I am expecting 15knts of breeze on a beam reach and 30^C all the time??

Thank you for the thoughts.

Attaching to cleats on the stern? Some cleats are not designed for this application, they are mooring cleats.

There have been earlier threads on adding chain plates on the transom specifically to retain, I think, a JSD. It may merit a search using the YBW search function. Or someone may recall the titles...

I note you are also consider using what you have already - the cordage might be perfect - but if not you really don't need to find out half way across the Atlantic - its a safety device, don't skimp (but I'm a Scot and understand and sympathies with your parsimony).

Jonathan