Csail
N/A
Following on from that gun post what are the legalities about selling knives at boat shows etc? (ie diving knives)
Knives
- Thread starter Csail
- Start date
OGITD
Well-Known Member
Knives?
Not researched this one but I thought (and I could be wrong) that you are allowed a knife just as long as it is in connection with a legal activity / pursuit. i.e. When involved in diving you must always wear an appropriate knife (divers knife). But I consider it to be dangerous to use anything else onboard a sailing vessel other than a Yachtsman’s, Riggers or Navy knife with a rounded tip / blade, thus rendering them impossible to accidentally stab the user or anyone else.
I would take offence at anyone carrying or wearing a Master Mariners Knife (good marketing name I suppose), as these look like a small version of the Bowie-Knife which is used for hunting. So there is no need for such a weapon onboard any vessel, unless you just happen to have a requirement to slaughter your own animals on a long passage….now is there?
Not researched this one but I thought (and I could be wrong) that you are allowed a knife just as long as it is in connection with a legal activity / pursuit. i.e. When involved in diving you must always wear an appropriate knife (divers knife). But I consider it to be dangerous to use anything else onboard a sailing vessel other than a Yachtsman’s, Riggers or Navy knife with a rounded tip / blade, thus rendering them impossible to accidentally stab the user or anyone else.
I would take offence at anyone carrying or wearing a Master Mariners Knife (good marketing name I suppose), as these look like a small version of the Bowie-Knife which is used for hunting. So there is no need for such a weapon onboard any vessel, unless you just happen to have a requirement to slaughter your own animals on a long passage….now is there?
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VicS
Well-Known Member
I guess you would have to be careful about selling them to youngsters in the same way that applies to shops. Age limit 16.
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Davy_S
Well-Known Member
You can buy what you like out here. I have just bought one of those Gerber? type knives, it has scissors, things for taking your teeth out, horses hoof thingy, screwdrivers, needles, fish scaler, shackle key loads of stuff, and its stainless steel, a much cheapness bargain at 2.40 euros, quite pleased with it.
Cliveshep
Well-Known Member
Don't know about selling knives but in this country they've all gone f***in' mad with H & S rubbish. My son told me yesterday that Tesco will sell him shaving foam but not the Bic disposable razors to go with it until he's 18!
On the other hand his school is unlikely to want or allow bearded teenagers in class.
We in England seriously need to consider taking our country back again!
30boat
N/A
That's stupid beyond belief.
VicS
Well-Known Member
And I think you will find a misinterpretation of the law.
The Offensive Weapons Act 1996 imposes an age restriction on the sale of knives etc and it includes razor blades although safety razor blades are, I believe, excepted.
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johnabbott893
Well-Known Member
I don't know the Acts off the top of my head. In a "Public Place", you can only carry a fixed bladed knife if you have a good reason to do so. It is up to you to prove it is a good reason. A folding knife that does not lock open is exempt and so can be carried in a public place without a good reason but there are certain caveats. ie:- don't take it to a football match or night club. If your excuse for having a fixed bladed knife is "work", such as a SCUBA diving instructor, then the burden of proof falls pack on the police to show that your carrying the knife in the "Public Place" is not reasonable.
Almost anything can become an offensive weapon. The issue with knives is that it often get confused for an offensive weapon when it is not. To be an offensive weapon the item must be made or modified to cause injury to people or there must be intent on behalf of the person carrying the item to use it to cause injury. A sailing or diving knife is not manufactured with the purpose of causing injury to people. Thus, it is not intrinsically an "Offensive Weapon". If you have a reasonable excuse, and no intent to stick it into someone, you can carry quite agressive looking knives in a public place.
If you conceal a knife to avoid alarming Jo Public, there is another offence of carrying a concealed weapon. What constitutes concealment is complicated.
The above applies to selling knives. Having fixed bladed knives at a boat jumble to sell them would constitute a reasonable excuse. Plus, there is additional laws governing age that I am not familiar with.
Almost anything can become an offensive weapon. The issue with knives is that it often get confused for an offensive weapon when it is not. To be an offensive weapon the item must be made or modified to cause injury to people or there must be intent on behalf of the person carrying the item to use it to cause injury. A sailing or diving knife is not manufactured with the purpose of causing injury to people. Thus, it is not intrinsically an "Offensive Weapon". If you have a reasonable excuse, and no intent to stick it into someone, you can carry quite agressive looking knives in a public place.
If you conceal a knife to avoid alarming Jo Public, there is another offence of carrying a concealed weapon. What constitutes concealment is complicated.
The above applies to selling knives. Having fixed bladed knives at a boat jumble to sell them would constitute a reasonable excuse. Plus, there is additional laws governing age that I am not familiar with.
xxyyzz
Well-Known Member
Really?
Neil
Well-Known Member
I always wear a bemused smile when reading UK-derived knife posts. As a knife user and collector, the attitude of some strikes me as misplaced. Knives cannot injure by themselves and cannot go off accidentally. I've carried some sort of knife for 48 years and haven't managed to stab anyone yet. The most lethal knives in my 'collection' are in my kitchen drawer, and most of them have pointy ends, which I often find is a useful feature. Folding knives with a locking blade are safer than non-folding, as I found out to my cost some years ago while trying to cut a shim from a plastic bottle and nearly severing two fingers. I do have a folding barrel-handled Puko from 1875 with a locking blade that was never intended as a weapon. I have a filleting knife on my boat that is very pointy and so sharp I have shaven with it, and should I so desire, could slip it between the 4 and 5th intercostal space, and with a deft movement, sever the heart from its connecting vessels. So far I've only used it to fillet fish.
A locking folder from a designer such as Darrel Ralph, costing up to 10,000 US would be banned as a weapon in the UK, but you can buy a screwdriver to sharpen at any age, at any hardware shop for a pound or two.
It sort of reminds me of the airport security guy who said to me: "You can't take that fishing reel on board", "why not?", "'cos you could strangle someone with that fishing line". "So what about people with ties and shoe laces then? or even your bare hands?"
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
I understand that back in the days of sailing commercial vessels, it was not unusual for the master to require that the tips of all knives with a pointed blade be taken to the carpenter's vice and the end snapped off. Of course, this was to reduce the potential for mayhem.
sky7liner
Active Member
When is it a weapon?
The fishing reel thing seems to me to fall into the same category of 'You can't take those nail clippers on board an aircraft but the sharpened pencil is fine'. As to carrying knives, I do English Civil War re-enactment and was standing in a city centre last year in full New Model Army kit which included a sword. (We had been asked by the local authority to help them commemorate the lifting of a seige in 1647.) Being new to this hobby it didn't occur to me until much later that an over-zealous constable could have made life a little inconvenient.
The fishing reel thing seems to me to fall into the same category of 'You can't take those nail clippers on board an aircraft but the sharpened pencil is fine'. As to carrying knives, I do English Civil War re-enactment and was standing in a city centre last year in full New Model Army kit which included a sword. (We had been asked by the local authority to help them commemorate the lifting of a seige in 1647.) Being new to this hobby it didn't occur to me until much later that an over-zealous constable could have made life a little inconvenient.
Evadne
Well-Known Member
Having been on a big inflatable when someone (accidentally) stabbed one of the tubes with his newly sharpened knife, I can see the point of that. 
OGITD
Well-Known Member
My logic still stands.
Quote me all you want guys….but I think my logic still stands.
Collect as many rare and expensive examples and keep them on a wall proudly displayed for all to see, ensuring they are out of reach of any children who might be tempted to play with them etc.
Ahhhh yes…I did forget about my filleting knife which I keep onboard which is extremely sharp, pointed and has the ability to flex from tip to handle and return to its original shape which I keep in my tackle box. This is only unsheathed when used for the purpose it was designed for…and never in rough seas.
I have not researched the psychology in the desire to wear a knife apart from as part of a religious or ceremonial dress which I accept. But there is no need for use as defense or macho statement / scare tactic as this will only attract the wrong kind of attention.
Yes I agree the most dangerous knives are in the Galley….but keep them there and used for the purpose they were intended for. Because if I saw anyone using such a knife at sea on deck I would consider them very irresponsible…..as accidents do happen you know.
Quote me all you want guys….but I think my logic still stands.
Collect as many rare and expensive examples and keep them on a wall proudly displayed for all to see, ensuring they are out of reach of any children who might be tempted to play with them etc.
Ahhhh yes…I did forget about my filleting knife which I keep onboard which is extremely sharp, pointed and has the ability to flex from tip to handle and return to its original shape which I keep in my tackle box. This is only unsheathed when used for the purpose it was designed for…and never in rough seas.
I have not researched the psychology in the desire to wear a knife apart from as part of a religious or ceremonial dress which I accept. But there is no need for use as defense or macho statement / scare tactic as this will only attract the wrong kind of attention.
Yes I agree the most dangerous knives are in the Galley….but keep them there and used for the purpose they were intended for. Because if I saw anyone using such a knife at sea on deck I would consider them very irresponsible…..as accidents do happen you know.
johnabbott893
Well-Known Member
IIRC two yachts caught in the tsunami in Samoa were saved by the "irresponsible" crew cutting the dock lines with kitchen knives.
RAI
Well-Known Member
Actually, knives are not all that they are cut up to be. Scissor, secateurs, wire cutters, hack saws often do a better job. Depending on what the job is of course. I've still got my boy scout Rambo sheath knife (a devil to keep the rust off it at sea) but it is pretty useless.
Neil
Well-Known Member
While I would agree with most of your boating practicalities, the original premise was on a different tack. My sentiments come from an entirely different perspective: I usually have a knife in my pocket to use as a convenient and multifunctional tool. I don't 'wear' a knife for effect and as a weapon of self-defence, I consider it useless. Even when I were a lad, I was never into macho statements. I got my first 'parentally approved' pen knife when I was eight (still have it). Yes, I cut myself a few times - I also split my knee with an axe once and hit my thumb with a hammer lots of times. As I boy scout, I had a sheath knife on my belt - it was part of the uniform. Nobody thought we were going to stab anyone.
However, increasing knife crime in the UK has led to a situation where innocent tool users are tarred with the hooligan brush, and it is the knife itself that is vilified. Always remember that any knife, no matter how big, sharp or pointy can't hurt anyone on its own - it's the person, not the knife that is to blame.
Time to get off the soap box!
OGITD
Well-Known Member
Common-sense.
As already stated a Yachtsman’s, Riggers or Navy knife which should be worn / carried when onboard at sea would be “fit for purpose” and would cut any lines in an emergency.
As it was an emergency then any knife or tool is acceptable and obviously not irresponsible…but NEVER on a general use / issue basis.
Why are we debating this when the logic is obvious and should be common-sense anyway?
As already stated a Yachtsman’s, Riggers or Navy knife which should be worn / carried when onboard at sea would be “fit for purpose” and would cut any lines in an emergency.
As it was an emergency then any knife or tool is acceptable and obviously not irresponsible…but NEVER on a general use / issue basis.
Why are we debating this when the logic is obvious and should be common-sense anyway?
Csail
N/A
Because the OP was about legalities of selling knives in public.
OGITD
Well-Known Member
We’ve all heard and probably used the term “the correct tool for the job” ….so the knives I have mentioned and anything resembling the afore mentioned are the only knives to use.
We have covered most of the exceptions in the Galley etc…..so anyone selling inappropriate knives at boat shows just to make a quick buck should be stopped, as they should be of no interest to the boating community.
