Ketch or Bermudan
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Bosun Higgs
N/A
I'm really surprised that you feel it necessary to replace what sounds like everything after just 17 years. Your rigger must love you!
jonic
Well-Known Member
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
A ketch, mostly, gives you an ideal place to hang your washing out to dry.
Oh, then sometimes, er, the other thing.
Perhaps.
Oh, then sometimes, er, the other thing.
Perhaps.
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
I agree with nearly all you said except that for down wind I just sail on twin head sails.
Not for me, the mizzen is aft of the cockpit, which makes a good back rest
Babylon
Well-Known Member
The third option is a cutter rig: it meets the requirement of breaking down the three individual white sails into more managable areas, while retaining the simplicity and economy of only one mast. The addition of a second pair of sheets and running-backstays don't exactly complicate one's sailing, and windward ability remains pretty good (we're not talking racing).
One particular advantage lies in the way in which one reefs down a cutter-rigged yacht as the wind pipes up. When a standard sloop changes down to a smaller headsail (or partially furls their big genoa with a consequent loss of sail-shape) the centre of effort of both reefed main and heads'l combined moves forward.
Whereas as on a cutter-rigged yacht, when one puts in the first reef in the main, one drops or furls the stays'l to retain overall balance. When the second reef goes in, one furls or hands the heads'l (yankee) altogether and re-hoists the stays'l. If conditions really deteriorate, one can sail pretty effectively with the just the stays'l, or hoist the storm-jib in its place on the inner forestay - ie all the time the centre of effort on the remaining sail area is kept close to the centre of the rig, keeping the whole boat more easily balanced.
Of course, add a long keel to the equation and just feel the smile spread across your face.
One particular advantage lies in the way in which one reefs down a cutter-rigged yacht as the wind pipes up. When a standard sloop changes down to a smaller headsail (or partially furls their big genoa with a consequent loss of sail-shape) the centre of effort of both reefed main and heads'l combined moves forward.
Whereas as on a cutter-rigged yacht, when one puts in the first reef in the main, one drops or furls the stays'l to retain overall balance. When the second reef goes in, one furls or hands the heads'l (yankee) altogether and re-hoists the stays'l. If conditions really deteriorate, one can sail pretty effectively with the just the stays'l, or hoist the storm-jib in its place on the inner forestay - ie all the time the centre of effort on the remaining sail area is kept close to the centre of the rig, keeping the whole boat more easily balanced.
Of course, add a long keel to the equation and just feel the smile spread across your face.
mjcoon
Well-Known Member
But even if not racing (or perhaps especially), isn't there a problem when tacking of getting the foresail on the forestay around the inner stay (not sure of terminology)? (Being much worse than merely around the mast.)
N.B. I have no direct experience of cutters.
Mike.
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
Yes there can be.
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
And make it a long keeler set up as a cutter rigged ketch and you've got the full package... [/smuggitmode]The third option is a cutter rig: it meets the requirement of breaking down the three individual white sails into more managable areas, while retaining the simplicity and economy of only one mast. The addition of a second pair of sheets and running-backstays don't exactly complicate one's sailing, and windward ability remains pretty good (we're not talking racing).
One particular advantage lies in the way in which one reefs down a cutter-rigged yacht as the wind pipes up. When a standard sloop changes down to a smaller headsail (or partially furls their big genoa with a consequent loss of sail-shape) the centre of effort of both reefed main and heads'l combined moves forward.
Whereas as on a cutter-rigged yacht, when one puts in the first reef in the main, one drops or furls the stays'l to retain overall balance. When the second reef goes in, one furls or hands the heads'l (yankee) altogether and re-hoists the stays'l. If conditions really deteriorate, one can sail pretty effectively with the just the stays'l, or hoist the storm-jib in its place on the inner forestay - ie all the time the centre of effort on the remaining sail area is kept close to the centre of the rig, keeping the whole boat more easily balanced.
Of course, add a long keel to the equation and just feel the smile spread across your face.
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
In theory yes, but if its rigged as a proper cutter, ie with the inner forestay sufficiently far back, then in practice the foresail will go through pretty easily
Rum_Pirate
Well-Known Member
And why not have a yawl?
Rum_Pirate
Well-Known Member
BTW 'KATE' is for sale.
npf1
Well-Known Member
Interesting ... so what wouldn't you replace?
BTW - some bits are being replaced primarily for aesthetic reasons, for example, where the chrome is in poor condition. I'm not doing all halyards, only those that are half wire
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Not for me, the mizzen is aft of the cockpit, which makes a good back rest
Personally, I don't like that. (centre cockpit sloops.
I want to be able to see all sails, at one glance.
Aft cockpit (cutter rigged) sloop fo me.
Babylon
Well-Known Member
In addition the heads'l on a cutter is usually a Yankee which is smaller than a sloop's Genoa and which has a high-cut foot, so there's considerably less sail to bring through the gap.
The only minor issue is that the sheet bowlines do occassionally snag temporarily on the inner-forestay as one's coming though the wind. To reduce this snagging, the previous owner of my own boat used a continuous heads'l sheet with a much less 'obstructive' knot at the clew (I've forgotten what knot it was), but I prefer independent sheets with bowlines. However, I've found that if I'm smart enough when tacking - letting off the old working sheet just before the sail backs - then the manoeuvre is usually snag-free. If a snag occurs, then it is usually only short-lived until the sail is pressed through by the wind.
Once the Yankee is sheeted home, I tack the stays'l and set up the new working running-backstay. Beating single-handed into a foul (falling) tide off Calshot on a busy summer weekend helps sharpen one's timing!
PetiteFleur
Well-Known Member
The only minor issue is that the sheet bowlines do occassionally snag temporarily on the inner-forestay as one's coming though the wind. To reduce this snagging, the previous owner of my own boat used a continuous heads'l sheet with a much less 'obstructive' knot at the clew (I've forgotten what knot it was), but I prefer independent sheets with bowlines. However, I've found that if I'm smart enough when tacking - letting off the old working sheet just before the sail backs - then the manoeuvre is usually snag-free. If a snag occurs, then it is usually only short-lived until the sail is pressed through by the wind.
The knot used is a Bowline, with scrap short lengths of rope trapped in the knot. I've used a double length sheet with a bowline in the centre for 3 years now and it never snags - admittedly my boat is only a Moody 33 with a babystay but it always snagged with seperate sheets and bowlines. When removing the rope at layup time just drag out the scrap rope with mole grips and the bowline undoes easily.
The knot used is a Bowline, with scrap short lengths of rope trapped in the knot. I've used a double length sheet with a bowline in the centre for 3 years now and it never snags - admittedly my boat is only a Moody 33 with a babystay but it always snagged with seperate sheets and bowlines. When removing the rope at layup time just drag out the scrap rope with mole grips and the bowline undoes easily.
rickym
Well-Known Member
My 2p's worth.
We sail 2 up and have a centre cockpit ketch for most of the reasons posted earlier. We wanted a flexible sailplan, upwind we sail as a sloop without the mizzen as hard on the wind the mizzen is backwinded by the main, as we bear away it is worth setting the mizzen.
We have a detachable inner forestay enabling the furling yankee to be rolled away and a No.1 jib or storm jib hoisted, depending on the point of sail and wind strength we can go to windward with the jib and main or reach without the main and use the mizzen, we heave too nicely with the mizzen and some sort of backed headsail. Downwind we can run with 2 headsails, the yankee poled out on the pole the other using the main boom as a pole with a block on the end of the boom. We frequently don't bother with the main and on a broad reach use the genoa and mizzen as the main would blank the genoa. With this configuration we don't need the pole. We carry a cruising chute for light winds work.
As others have said there is inbuilt redundancy at the masthead for comms aerials etc and if we lost one mast we could set some sort of sail on the remaining one if the scrap could not be recovered to be used as a jury rig.
At anchor the reefed mizzen is a good steadying sail, mizzen shrouds are a good place to send novice crew to stand so they don't get in the way when mooring up or anchoring!
On the negative we have a lot of running and standing rigging, but I think ketches and yawls look pretty! Oh yes and SWMBO likes it as well nuf said!
We sail 2 up and have a centre cockpit ketch for most of the reasons posted earlier. We wanted a flexible sailplan, upwind we sail as a sloop without the mizzen as hard on the wind the mizzen is backwinded by the main, as we bear away it is worth setting the mizzen.
We have a detachable inner forestay enabling the furling yankee to be rolled away and a No.1 jib or storm jib hoisted, depending on the point of sail and wind strength we can go to windward with the jib and main or reach without the main and use the mizzen, we heave too nicely with the mizzen and some sort of backed headsail. Downwind we can run with 2 headsails, the yankee poled out on the pole the other using the main boom as a pole with a block on the end of the boom. We frequently don't bother with the main and on a broad reach use the genoa and mizzen as the main would blank the genoa. With this configuration we don't need the pole. We carry a cruising chute for light winds work.
As others have said there is inbuilt redundancy at the masthead for comms aerials etc and if we lost one mast we could set some sort of sail on the remaining one if the scrap could not be recovered to be used as a jury rig.
At anchor the reefed mizzen is a good steadying sail, mizzen shrouds are a good place to send novice crew to stand so they don't get in the way when mooring up or anchoring!
On the negative we have a lot of running and standing rigging, but I think ketches and yawls look pretty! Oh yes and SWMBO likes it as well nuf said!
jwilson
Well-Known Member
Varua didn't have a large shed on deck.She is indeed.
jonic
Well-Known Member
It is the sailplan we are discussing.
alan_d
Well-Known Member
But aren't sails are called after the mast or stay on which they are set, and the mainsail so called because it is set on the mainmast, not because it is the principal sail? I can't think of any rig which has two mainmasts, but on a schooner the mainsail and the analogous sail set on the foremast are often similarly sized. I don't know what it should be called; foresail probably, but this word is more commonly used as an abbreviation for the forestaysail (also abbreviated to staysail). This latter sail is often nicknamed the jib, but that name should strictly be reserved for the foretopmaststaysail.
