[10753]
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I'm sure this has been asked a million times before but for a Bluewater Liveaboard what are the pros and cons of each.
Ketch or Bermudan
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ffiill
Well-Known Member
Love my ketch rigged Motorsailer(75% sail 25% motor)
In moderate wind take down the main and run on missen and genoa-far more control than having the main reefed.
Motoring into wind set missen stand alone and boat steers itself.
Anchoring with missen set tight stops boat veering this way and that
etc-sure there are plenty more examples.
In moderate wind take down the main and run on missen and genoa-far more control than having the main reefed.
Motoring into wind set missen stand alone and boat steers itself.
Anchoring with missen set tight stops boat veering this way and that
etc-sure there are plenty more examples.
prv
Well-Known Member
"Bermudan" isn't the opposite of "ketch".
Ketch means two masts with the after one the smaller of the two but still a decent size. (If the after mast is very small it's a yawl; the thing about rudder posts is merely a racing rule.)
Bermudan means a three-cornered sail, as opposed to a four-cornered gaff rig (or something more exotic like junk or square rig).
Most ketches will be bermudan ketches.
The usually-quoted advantage of a ketch is that the individual sails are smaller than the big mainsail of a sloop or cutter, hence easier to handle with the short crew usual on a long-distance cruising yacht. Some people say it's easier to jury-rig in the event of losing the mainmast, which is no doubt true but seems an odd criterion on which to choose a boat. You have a certain extra flexibility of sailplan - some might drop the mizzen as a first reef, others regard mizzen and headsail(s), with mainsail stowed, as their heavy-weather rig (although my yawl doesn't sail well at all like that). It's mildly useful to have two mastheads to distribute your aerials and sensors between. Some people (myself included) think that boats with two masts look prettier than those with one.
The main downside is that two-masted rigs don't go to windward as well as single-masted ones. Although the performance on a reach is typically better. There's also a cost penalty in having twice as many of each fitting, albeit the mizzen ones may be a size or two smaller.
Pete
Ketch means two masts with the after one the smaller of the two but still a decent size. (If the after mast is very small it's a yawl; the thing about rudder posts is merely a racing rule.)
Bermudan means a three-cornered sail, as opposed to a four-cornered gaff rig (or something more exotic like junk or square rig).
Most ketches will be bermudan ketches.
The usually-quoted advantage of a ketch is that the individual sails are smaller than the big mainsail of a sloop or cutter, hence easier to handle with the short crew usual on a long-distance cruising yacht. Some people say it's easier to jury-rig in the event of losing the mainmast, which is no doubt true but seems an odd criterion on which to choose a boat. You have a certain extra flexibility of sailplan - some might drop the mizzen as a first reef, others regard mizzen and headsail(s), with mainsail stowed, as their heavy-weather rig (although my yawl doesn't sail well at all like that). It's mildly useful to have two mastheads to distribute your aerials and sensors between. Some people (myself included) think that boats with two masts look prettier than those with one.
The main downside is that two-masted rigs don't go to windward as well as single-masted ones. Although the performance on a reach is typically better. There's also a cost penalty in having twice as many of each fitting, albeit the mizzen ones may be a size or two smaller.
Pete
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jonic
Well-Known Member
Here is an example of how a large sail plan can be broken up in order to be handled by two people. I think there is no doubt she looks extremely pretty.
I have never had a ketch as a liveaboard but friends who do, especially those who sail short handed with a young family, swear by them. Even with the reduced windward performance. But don't forget most long distance sailors are heading downwind.
prv
Well-Known Member
Here is an example of how a large sail plan can be broken up in order to be handled by two people. I think there is no doubt she looks extremely pretty.
Yep - she used to be berthed just downriver from me and I used to slow down on my way past to gawp
I like boats that are a little unusual, and if I had the money then Wild Knight would definitely be on my list of possibilities.
Pete
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
Here is an example of how a large sail plan can be broken up in order to be handled by two people. I think there is no doubt she looks extremely pretty.
I hate to disagree but that would be 10 times easier to handle with two bermudan mains instead of three fisherman staysails and two square sails.
I would also like to cast doubt on the fact she looks extremely pretty. I for one would have to put a bag over my head before steering that into port.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
How can you have two mains?
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
We bought a ketch so that Jane could handle the sails. Two other things mentioned, yes they are prettier than a sloop. The split sail plan is wonderful for different wind angles. For example when broad or beam reaching when the apparent wind reaches 25 knots we drop the main put four furls in the genoa and don't touch the mizzen. The speed drops 0.5 of a knot but the heel comes off and the boat is perfectly balancanced with a neutral helm. You can also use to the mizzen hold the boat into wind if you sail off the anchor and use it turn in tight spaces.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
It's a schooner. You have a main sail, and a foresail. Both the main sail on their respective masts. Some circles of schooner sailors refer to the foresail as the fore main.
HinewaisMan
Well-Known Member
Having got a blue water 45ft ketch, I'd agree with PRV says.
We did go the ketch route since the rig and sails are smaller and for us well into our 50's that's a major advantage.
But, having once been on a yacht where the whole rig went over the side, we also wanted to have a rig that we did loose a mast, we'd have something left if jury rig wasn't possible. With some ocean passages, you don't carry enough fuel to get anywhere under power.
To that end, we actually changed our rig and got rid of the triatic stay so that the two masts are independently stayed.
And it is useful to be able to back up comms gear. Our VHF and HF are on the main mast, AIS running off the mizzen. But to get the VHF on the mizzen is just a matter of swapping plugs.
One thing that blew me away is how grand it is to have the mizzen sail to balance the boat – we do use it as our heavy weather sail rather than a heavily reefed main - and it’s a grand sail to heave to with.
We had major problems pointing when learning the boat at first – our sheets run outside the beam – and she stalls dead if you pinch up too much – it’s hard to keep the foil shape across all three sails – your mizzen boom can end up past the centreline. You have to ease away to keep your VMG up.
So for up wind, we rigged up a detachable inner forestay and swop to two fairly high cut yankees – one or the fore and one on the inner stays. The staysail we can run inside the shrouds, the headie we can sheet tighter moving the car.
For down wind sailing we’ll use our big genny, poled out if need be, and the mizzen – the main just blankets if it’s up – especially if we have twin headsails poled out. And with the mizzen boom behind you, a chinese gybe ain't so dangerous.
And then, for fun, when the winds light and from the right direction, we run two cruising chutes – one of the main, one off the mizzen.
And finally, she does look beautiful.
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC
Well-Known Member
A "modern" single mast yacht, with good equipment (furler etc) and good reefing systems, it will be easier and quicker to use and to balance.
Instead of two masts, it will be better to convert to a cutter rig;(not always necessary to move the mast aft) easier to balance and to operate, provided both foresails have good furling systems.
Instead of two masts, it will be better to convert to a cutter rig;(not always necessary to move the mast aft) easier to balance and to operate, provided both foresails have good furling systems.
DanTribe
Well-Known Member
I've never been a fan of ketch or cutter rigs for my sort of sailing in estuary & coastal areas. They seem very labour intensive and inefficient, especially to windward.
I'm sure if I'm ever fortunate to be able to go blue water sailing I shall change my mind.
One disadvantage I've noticed when sailing a friend's ketch is that, at night, the condensation drips on you constantly. Perhaps a small point, but after several hours it becomes a nuisance.
I'm sure if I'm ever fortunate to be able to go blue water sailing I shall change my mind.
One disadvantage I've noticed when sailing a friend's ketch is that, at night, the condensation drips on you constantly. Perhaps a small point, but after several hours it becomes a nuisance.
npf1
Well-Known Member
I agree with pretty much everything that's been said above, but thought I'd elaborate on cost, as I'm just going through a re-rig and the costs are more than eyewatering. I'd be crying in my beer if I had any £ left to buy one!
With masts to repaint, 23 rigging screws, almost 250 metres of wire, zillions of halyards, 46 swageless or swaged fittings, as many clevis pins, 12 tang assemblies, etc, etc, the cost is way more than double that of a single masted boat.
It's 17 years since it was last done and it'll take that long before my wallet recovers from this one!
With masts to repaint, 23 rigging screws, almost 250 metres of wire, zillions of halyards, 46 swageless or swaged fittings, as many clevis pins, 12 tang assemblies, etc, etc, the cost is way more than double that of a single masted boat.
It's 17 years since it was last done and it'll take that long before my wallet recovers from this one!
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
I agree.
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
Um, what's that got to do with the rig type??
prv
Well-Known Member
Presumably all the sloops he's sailed on have short booms that don't overhang the cockpit.
To me that always seems like a waste of potential sail area
Pete
DanTribe
Well-Known Member
Because ketches have that mast and sail at the back which tends to be over the cockpit, [that's the bit where the driver sits]. Therefor there is more mast, sail and rigging to collect moisture and drip.
There is less stuff above you in a Bermudan rig.
prv
Well-Known Member
I'm sure the ketch that dripped on you was bermudan-rigged, but I know what you're trying to say.
For what it's worth, my main-boom extends to the aft edge of the cockpit, so could just as well drip on me. There's plenty of older boats that are the same. Go back far enough, and main-booms stuck out over the stern. The boom-not-extending-over-the-cockpit thing seems to have come about with the 70s small-main-massive-genoa layout that AFAIK was a response to racing rules.
As I said above, if you're not constrained by ratings, it seems like a waste not to use that area above the cockpit to set some sail in.
Pete
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
It is all to do with aspect ratio's and power to weight ratios. Most boats these days simply do not need all that extra sail area.
Kelpie
Well-Known Member
OK, got you now. Just the word 'condensation' made me assume that this was something that happened down in the cabin!
Our old boom (on a berm sloop, btw) had a neat design feature. It was exactly the right length to sit overhead whilst you kept watch from under the sprayhood. The rain would be scooped up by the mainsail and fed into the boom itself, from where it would flow down to the outboard end and emerge through three rivet holes, neatly dowsing you in water for many long hours. Moving to the windward side of the cockpit just exposed you to more rain directly. Fun times.
