Keel/Rudder design

Skylark

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The boat owners asked for information, ie which glue I think it was.
Your example included asking for replacing a damaged item.
But the boat owners weren't asking for Beneteau to replace the damaged item.
Therefore, non sequitur. A bad equivalent.

By sealing compound I mean a manual or tech will stipulate which Loctite grade (or not) etc.

Taken at random from a parts manual for an IHI-27V4; part number: 0517 080 20 Bolt, Treatment (W/L.W, F.W).

The abbreviations specify details for the bolt.

Looking at a manual for an IHI RHG6, it specifies red Loctite. Another stipulated Loctite 640.

Bolts, of course, are a bad example to choose as their grade is normally identified on the head with markings.

So, there you go. I, a total novice at Turbos, run a ring around you, a professional in the trade. Evidence that amateurs with half-a-brain and a little integrity can sometimes do a more conscientious job than people who charge for it.

(I suppose you'll respond that Loctite isn't a sealing compound, it's a compound for sealing threads or something...)

If you were following the thread progression you would have seen that I started by referring to the boat builder not giving any Tom, Dick and Harry repair instructions. Your tangent shows yet again that it's too easy to misinterpret meaning. Why should a boat builder get involved when he has, probably, invested in a trained, qualified, experienced, tooled and authorised dealer and/or repair network. There may be fatal consequences to a bad repair.

With regard to IHI, congratulations. I have no problem with amateurs (why insult them as only having half a brain?) (don't see the relevance of the word "integrity") using their initiative to effect DIY repairs but when, with their best intentions, they get something very wrong, please don't slander and/or libel the original maker.

With regard to sealing compound, I was referring to the video in which, iirc, the guy used a sealing compound on the backplate to compressor housing joint. Fair point regarding Loctite, albeit the company that I worked for didn't specify it. Ok if the thread is either blind or external to any moving parts. My personal view is that the RPN of a Risk Assessment is too high without putting mitigation measures in place, generally outside the scope of an amateur, but, be my guest if it makes you happy. I ignore the advice given with good intent by people with relevant knowledge and experience all of the time.

I have a 50+ year old car which I thinker with but I'm not a trained mechanic. If I get something wrong, it's my fault. Cars of that era have lousy brakes so must be driven accordingly. It would be silly to proclaim that such cars are not suitable for today's roads or would you like to pick holes in that statement, too?
 

Hallberg-Rassy

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Not suitable for today's speeds? Roads are pretty much the same.

Although it's clearly out of Beneteau's 7-year structural warranty, and has suffered accidental damage, I'd still be paying attention if I was them not going into denial. Most manufacturers experience recalls and extended warranty situations at some point or another.
Why should a boat builder get involved when he has, probably, invested in a trained, qualified, experienced, tooled and authorised dealer and/or repair network.
I don't know how it is in the boat world, but in the automotive world, especially in the US (although I'd expect the EU to be pretty good on this), there were all sorts of legal cases to prohibit manufacturers from exercising such monopolistic holds over their markets, eg something like, you aren't allow to copyright the technical information in manuals, third parties were allowed to carry service work.

I have no idea what the bods in this video did, or who they spoke to. If I was them, I would have tried calling a few different departments etc, or tracked down a specific individual by name (sometimes if you can't work your way past reception/customer service, just calling back and asking for a specific individual by name gets you straight through).

I could imagine first line customer service blocking them, they're pretty much the same in every industry, just working to scripts. But I'm really surprised someone more technical didn't take an interest and be more helpful.

Did they fix it? I could make some calls in the UK ...

Underlines how in this world we're just supposed to pay, pay & and; not ask questions, and shut up.
 
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TernVI

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Perhaps the manufacturer had already been consulted about that boat and had advised it be written off, it would explain why it was 'salvage'.....

Anyone who knows a little about GRP will understand that knowing what bonding comound was used to bond the hull and grid together in the factory is not going to be much help years later.
 

Skylark

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Underlines how in this world we're just supposed to pay, pay & and; not ask questions, and shut up.

You keep missing the whole point.

The OP stated that modern boats are "definitely not for blue water cruising" He went on to introduce a couple who are repairing a damaged boat and made the possibly libelous statement that "everyone seems to think that was poor workmanship by Beneteau"

I've owned sailing boats with fully encapsulated keels and fin and balanced spade rudders. Both types are perfectly capable of blue water cruising as is evidenced by the thousands of liveaboarders doing just that. I'm happy to see everyone on the water in their choice of vessel.

But, I don't like to see, what I see as churlish, prejudiced and polarising trolls go unchallenged.

The thread became sidetracked into damage repairs. If you want to DIY a repair, please feel free. I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to show that sometimes, it's probably better to defer to someone with training, experience and access to the correct tools, materials and a factory approved standard operating procedure. Without melodrama, a badly repaired damaged keel could be life threatening. Sometimes its not just a question of pay and shut up. However, you're free to make your choice.
 
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doug748

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What we don't hear about are boats that have had a poor joint between keel and grp so have had the keel dropped and maybe poor condition bolts replaced and relaunched.
It's one of those things where people don't have bolts inspected because keels falling off is not an everyday occurrence.
Each haul out I see boats on the hard with damp at the keel/hull joint.
Has water got to the keel bolts? Is there any galvanic corrosion ? Who really knows?


I looked at boats with encapsulated keels because I felt over long ownership they promised less trouble. Which has been the case: no joint leaks, no failing gaskets no worrying weeps, no rusty keels, no corrosion treatments, no bolt testing , no replacements.
They are almost maintenance free, leak free and place the ballast where it needs to be at the base of the keel

The downsides are the keel repairs needed if you do hit anything hard, and the cost. Plus, if you want a thin deep keel, you are forced into looking at fabrications anyway. Why anyone would want a thin deep keel for cruising in another question for the Gods.

Encapsulated keel are expensive, people would rather see 15 grand off the up front price which is fair enough. However trying to pitch bolt on keels as a terrific option for cruising boats is patently wide of the mark.

Boats costing a quarter of a million quid being effectively scrap after a heavy grounding is just sad.

.


.
 

pvb

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?
That is my yacht! (This is priceless :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:)

What is wrong with the way I have attached the lower bearing? I have done it in accordance with the designer's plans. Not surprisingly you think you know better than the designer. (it's your Dunning Kruger syndrome at its' worst on display!)?

As well as the bolts through the side of the keel (My idea) it has two heavy (15mm?) bolts through the back of the keel as per desiner's plansl!! (The fiberglass would be 1 in. + thick at that point)

??Talk about a loser!

Geez PVB you've become absolutely irrational! (Go take a Bex and have a lay down) ???

I'll ignore your hysterical insults. So you're saying you followed the designer's plans, except you didn't - you added more bolts as you obviously didn't think it was strong enough (otherwise why bother?).

Designers don't always get things right. Your Mauritius 43 is a Roberts design which many owners have found difficult to steer at sea. As a result, a number of them have modified the rudder design, making the boat faster, more directionally stable, reducing weather helm, and making the steering lighter. I imagine you'd accuse those owners of having Dunning-Kruger effect! However, they have actually sailed their boats...

One owner said "The boat is so much easier to handle now. Before the modifications I couldn't stay at the helm for more than 3 hours without being tired to the bone from the "wandering" But on my last outing I was at the helm for 12 hours, tired, but no sore shoulders from fighting the helm."

Another owner said "With the rudder mods. We spent 10 days sailing over Xmas in a variety of conditions. I would consider the results highly successful. Boat speed is a lot better, up from a max of 7 knots to a max of 8.5, with a similar increase in cruising speed from 6 knots to 7.5. The weather helm is much reduced, although still noticeable, particularly if pushed hard and the boat is quite heavy on the helm, understandable considering the size of rudder she now has. She is also still a bit tender, particularly in a following sea but this is manageable as opposed to being just impossible before."

You can see photos and comments here - Mauritius / Norfolk 43 Rudder Modification - Fine Line Boat Plans & Designs
 

Poignard

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On another forum I made sarcastic remarks about their fund raising to finance their lifestyle and boat restoration. But then I thought people like Dashew, Knox Johnston, Hiscocks, Adlard Coles who wrote books, found a publisher who then sold the books to whoever was interested enough to buy them. These people make videos, publish them on YouTube and some people pay.

What is the difference?
Quality.
 

coopec

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The OP states that modern boats are “definitely not for blue water cruising” I think it a silly comment because there are many, probably the majority, of blue water cruisers enjoying their lifestyle in modern boats. It’s a polarising view feeding hysteria to the weak and feeble and, as we’ve already seen within the thread, it quickly leads to plainly untrue and potentially libellous comments “everyone seems to think that was poor workmanship by Beneteau”

The problem is that all modern boats have fin keels and many have spade rudders.

Of course people will believe what they want to believe and call anyone with an opposing view "childish"

I've been searching everywhere for the list of yachts that lost their keel and I've finally found it.
smile.gif
(As the report points out how many other fin keels have fallen off and the yachts and crews have disappeared..........?) (The database is only up to 2016 so are many more since then

This time I've down loaded and saved it as I'm sure I've read some time ago "they" didn't want the list published


Keel Failure Summary 20180829 - CEDOMARE

www.cedomare.com › wp-content › uploads › 2018/09


XLS
15, 10, POLINA STAR, 2015, 4-Jul, Cruising, Keel Broke Off, Sank, No, Alessio ... -a-views/705-another-major-keel-failure-what-really-happened-to-polina-star-iii ... /keel-detatchment-and-capsize-of-sailing-yacht-cheeki-rafiki-with-loss-of-4-lives ... 27, 22, RAMBLER, 2011, 15-Aug, Fastnet Race, Keel Broke off, Inverted, N/A
 

dankilb

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I’m a bit late to the debate, I know...!

But we have a Jenneau (Voyage) with a partial (and very beefy) skeg-hung rudder. Best of both worlds, perhaps, therefore?!

Keel bolts are also large and plentiful, with proper steel backing plates (not washers).

There are plenty of aspects of the design/build that may invite some ‘consideration’ with a view towards blue water passage making, but the keel and rudder aren’t among them!
 

Rappey

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You don’t seem to have a good opinion of “so called professionals” but have trust in “sometimes amateurs with skills
How do you come to that conclusion ? I was merely stating it is possible an amateur can do a better job.
The professionals glued the matrix to the hull. The amateurs are going to fibreglass it. Much larger contact area leading to a stronger joint ?
I know a guy that built his own rustler 36. His interior woodwork is even more amazing than the already beautifully built professional version.
Let's take the lower rudder mounting of coopec,s boat. I'm sure it was professionally designed and up to the job, but look at my amateur design in pic 47. Much easier to fabricate and fit and many many times stronger, and covers the gap where a rope could catch between the keel and rudder.
 

pvb

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How safe is a yacht like this? Is it any wonder keels drop off? :rolleyes:

That's the Match 42 which has already been referred to. It had a design flaw (you see, designers don't always get it right!). The keel dropped off one, and Bavaria re-worked all the others. That's the only Bavaria model which has suffered a design fault in the keel attachment.
 

HissyFit

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Tell us about the big OYster which sank. Are you referring to Cheeki Rafiki ?

It doesn't look like anyone has given you the full reply to this. No, not Cheeki Rafiki, which was adjudged to have been grounded. The Oyster was the 825 'Polina Star III' which sank in 2015, and it wasn't brand new having already completed the ARC in 2014. It, along with the other 825's, had a new encapsulated keel and matrix design, which had proved difficult to build. The result of the build difficulty was poor build. When Polina Star III's keel broke, it broke the matrix and took a transit sized piece of the hull with it. It sank quickly, but all crew got off safely.

After sitting on the bottom of the Med for three months, the hull and keel were raised by the insurers, to dispute the claims of the then Oyster management that the keel must have been grounded. The litigation lead to Oyster's former backers walking away, leaving Oyster to be bought and returned to private ownership by software developer, Richard Hadida. The owner of Polina Star III walked away to limit his costs, leaving Boat Salvage of Essex with the wreak and the costs of storage. They rebuilt it and are now chartering it as 'Champagne Hippy'. Yachting World did a big article on it.

Polina Star III remains the only Oyster to suffer keel failure. All the other 825s were either recalled and modified or modified in-build.
 

pvb

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Graham376

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How do you come to that conclusion ? I was merely stating it is possible an amateur can do a better job.
The professionals glued the matrix to the hull. The amateurs are going to fibreglass it. Much larger contact area leading to a stronger joint ?
I know a guy that built his own rustler 36. His interior woodwork is even more amazing than the already beautifully built professional version.
Let's take the lower rudder mounting of coopec,s boat. I'm sure it was professionally designed and up to the job, but look at my amateur design in pic 47. Much easier to fabricate and fit and many many times stronger, and covers the gap where a rope could catch between the keel and rudder.

Problem is, what will be the view of a potential purchaser further down the line? Before I sold our Berwick it needed the keel stubs reinforcing so I had a surveyor write up the spec, inspect my work as it progressed and certified the job at completion. Are they doing the same?
 

Hallberg-Rassy

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This must have been the original ad, 2008 Beneteau 49?

I heard a lashed together raft of river rushes makes an adequate blue water boat with several proven long crossings. But, out of a personal preference, I think I'd got for a boat with a fully encapulated long keel supporting its rudder too.

What does "blue water" even mean anymore?

I'd rather classify boats on the basis of "likely to survive hitting a sunken container" or not.
What we don't hear about are boats that have had a poor joint between keel and grp ....Each haul out I see boats on the hard with damp at the keel/hull joint.
I concur on that. Briny bilges on the inside too even.
Brits lean towards the mean of spirit and I guess you are very firmly to the right of that spectrum.
Somehow I don't see many socialists queuing up to sponsor an airplane pilot going sailing in a 49 yacht.
 
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Baggywrinkle

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Here are some example bilges/keel bolts from a 21 year old Bavaria 36 ..... looks awful doesn't it? :rolleyes: Briney bilges? .... nope, just have to hoover out all the dust and crumbs at the end of the season.

PS: They are still torqued to the original spec and the keel is still there - even though it spent the first 10 years of its life as a charter boat.

You don't half hear a load of old bollox on these forums.

Unbenannt.JPG
 

Bobc

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