Madhatter
Well-Known Member
I am looking at a Junk rigged boat 22' ,I would love to know what the panel think of this set up ?
Junk rig ??
- Thread starter Madhatter
- Start date
webcraft
Well-Known Member
.Have you visited Roger Taylor's website? He has sailed a junk-rigged Corribee to the Azores and Greenland.
People I know who have sailed a junk rig report that it is the easiest to handle, most forgiving rig there is. I have never sailed on a junk rigged boat but would very much like to.
- W
People I know who have sailed a junk rig report that it is the easiest to handle, most forgiving rig there is. I have never sailed on a junk rigged boat but would very much like to.
- W
Slow_boat
Well-Known Member
I used to make the sails for junk rigged Kingfishers. The sails could be made of just about any material by anyone as they have no shape cut into them. I sailed them a few times years ago.
Once set up the rig is very easy to use. The top of the sail twists off in gust to depower the rig, reefing is just a case of dropping the halyard, as I recall on any point of sail. There is no standing rigging to worry about or to stress the hull.
The only downside was windward performance, which was about the same as an old gaffer in both speed, pointing ability and leeway.
Once set up the rig is very easy to use. The top of the sail twists off in gust to depower the rig, reefing is just a case of dropping the halyard, as I recall on any point of sail. There is no standing rigging to worry about or to stress the hull.
The only downside was windward performance, which was about the same as an old gaffer in both speed, pointing ability and leeway.
bendyone
Well-Known Member
This one ? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/22ft-junk-rig-sailing-boat-/140470572678?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Sailing_Boats_ET&hash=item20b4b2d686
Talk to Tommyrot he has one.
Talk to Tommyrot he has one.
electrosys
Well-Known Member
Things have changed over the last few years - there are now proven methods of incorporating camber into junk sails - either by using hinged battens, or the inclusion of rounding into each panel. The resulting windward performance is now quite good.
KREW2
Well-Known Member
There was one in the RTI in june, We passed it on the run down to the needles, half way to St Catherines Point he was back along side us.
chrisedwards
Well-Known Member
I was crewing on this boat for the Round the Island Race - it was an old 1973 Westerley Longbow battletank with a modern junk rig. We came halfway down our class and beat tack for tack amongst others: Rival 34, Moody 31, 30 and 28and 27, Contessa 28, Westerly Merlin and Tempest, Sadler 29, Dufour 28, Hunter Channel 31, Halberg Rassey 29, Legend 280 etc. The above poster was probably flying a spinnaker on the run and so overtook us. We caught up on the wind.
On the basis of this can we lay to rest the old bugbear that junk rigs do not sail well to windward.
Please consider seriously this rig. For me it opened a whole new world of sailing which is not possible with bermudan rigs. See previous posts on the subject.
Tommyrot
Well-Known Member
Previous posters have more or less got it spot on, although leeway is more down to hull shape than rig, a minor point, but there we are....
It is the easiest rig to handle, reefing is done by releasing the halyard until the desired sail size is reached, then tweaking a couple of lines.
Tacking and gybing is a matter of pushing the tiller across.
All lines are run back to the cockpit, so no need for clambering on the coachroof.
The sail can be hoisted or lowered without coming "head to wind" by letting the sail "weathercock".
There are downsides of course, it's an easy and forgiving rig to sail, but not so easy to get the best from it, there is very little feedback from the sail to tell you how things are going. On the other hand, it'll sail no matter how badly it's set up!
One big difference is in how tightly a bermudan sail is sheeted in compared to a junk, if there is much weight at all on the sheet, it's too tight, no need for winches. The sail is set at a much smaller angle to the wind. This of course, means less heeling.
Going hove-to is difficult without a jib, although there are methods depending on the boat's characteristics.
There is very little difference in windward ability, this again is as much dependent on the hull as the rig. Hinged battens and cambered sails are known to improve windward performance if needed.
Downwind the sail can be squared across the boat, the battens hold it all nicely in light airs.
It's not for everybody, I heard of one sailor who went back to bermudan as he got bored with so little work to do!
It is the easiest rig to handle, reefing is done by releasing the halyard until the desired sail size is reached, then tweaking a couple of lines.
Tacking and gybing is a matter of pushing the tiller across.
All lines are run back to the cockpit, so no need for clambering on the coachroof.
The sail can be hoisted or lowered without coming "head to wind" by letting the sail "weathercock".
There are downsides of course, it's an easy and forgiving rig to sail, but not so easy to get the best from it, there is very little feedback from the sail to tell you how things are going. On the other hand, it'll sail no matter how badly it's set up!
One big difference is in how tightly a bermudan sail is sheeted in compared to a junk, if there is much weight at all on the sheet, it's too tight, no need for winches. The sail is set at a much smaller angle to the wind. This of course, means less heeling.
Going hove-to is difficult without a jib, although there are methods depending on the boat's characteristics.
There is very little difference in windward ability, this again is as much dependent on the hull as the rig. Hinged battens and cambered sails are known to improve windward performance if needed.
Downwind the sail can be squared across the boat, the battens hold it all nicely in light airs.
It's not for everybody, I heard of one sailor who went back to bermudan as he got bored with so little work to do!
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
Junk is a very simple, low stressed, low tuned rig. That's to it's advantage and disadvantage.
I've sailed many hundreds of miles in one, and alongside many others. They TEND to have modest upwind performance. You CAN get round the performance shortcomings, but only by sacrificing a good deal of the simplicity and low tuning, which, to my mind at least, is a major part of the rationale of a junk.
Assuming you haven't go hinged battens and goodness knows what else -
Some Advantages - ultra fast, easy reefing; because of speed/ease of reefing it's easy to carry plenty of sail for light airs in your standard sails; low stress means usually no need for winches; very simple, almost anything in the rig can be made or repaired by hand yourself or by any reasonbly handy person anywhere in the world with simple materials (no need for fancy proprietary kit or waiting for parts to arrive); low tuned rig means very forgiving in terms of trim; great downwind as position of sail not limited by the mast stays (you can even safely run by the lee).
Some Disadvantages: Miles of rope (sheets) to deal with; modest upwind ability (see above); limited ability to tune rig; no mast stays to hang on to going forward!
A great rig for laid back cruising, in my opinion, and particulary for (world) cruising on a budget.
I've sailed many hundreds of miles in one, and alongside many others. They TEND to have modest upwind performance. You CAN get round the performance shortcomings, but only by sacrificing a good deal of the simplicity and low tuning, which, to my mind at least, is a major part of the rationale of a junk.
Assuming you haven't go hinged battens and goodness knows what else -
Some Advantages - ultra fast, easy reefing; because of speed/ease of reefing it's easy to carry plenty of sail for light airs in your standard sails; low stress means usually no need for winches; very simple, almost anything in the rig can be made or repaired by hand yourself or by any reasonbly handy person anywhere in the world with simple materials (no need for fancy proprietary kit or waiting for parts to arrive); low tuned rig means very forgiving in terms of trim; great downwind as position of sail not limited by the mast stays (you can even safely run by the lee).
Some Disadvantages: Miles of rope (sheets) to deal with; modest upwind ability (see above); limited ability to tune rig; no mast stays to hang on to going forward!
A great rig for laid back cruising, in my opinion, and particulary for (world) cruising on a budget.
Madhatter
Well-Known Member
Thanks to all for the comments and advice ---
Brent Swain
N/A
A complex, chafe prone rig which is hopeless to windward. Camber only works on one tack. OK for a 22 footer, not much to lose, but a big mistake on bigger boats.
planteater
Well-Known Member
Don't forget the advantages of an unstayed mast. Many are hinged and allow easy passage under bridges. A 22ft junk rig could easily leave the Thames upstream of Oxford and then circumnavigate the UK.
A tourers rig, kind of like the VW camper of boats. (A good thing, IMO)
A tourers rig, kind of like the VW camper of boats. (A good thing, IMO)
chrisedwards
Well-Known Member
there have been major changes in the development of this rig which make the above comments slightly dated. Our Round the Island rig which beat so many bermudan rigged boats upwind, was extremely simple with very few ropes. Hinged panels may need more ropes but the fastest rig is the sewn in camber version which again is very simple with few ropes. If you do want performance then as for any rig you may need to add tweaking ropes otherwise there are in fact far fewer ropes than on a bermudan rig but these can be longer. No standing rigging is such a relief - the integrity the rig is not dependant on an enormous number of shrouds, crosstrees, split pins, chainplates, t-terminals etc etc.
Unfortunately a junk rig is not a cheap option. Masts are more expensive. a sail with built in camber takes more cloth and stitching and so is comparable in price to a mainand jib. The jointed battens are expensive....
As for laid back cruising - yes but not laid back sailing. The rig opens up so many possibilities that you never want to use the engine - now that's a challenge.
chrisedwards
Well-Known Member
wow - "hopeless to windward" - please explain why an old Westerly Longbow junkrig beat so many other boats (see earlier posts from me and other entrants) - tacking - in the last Round the Island race. I have had no chafe on five junk rigged boats over twenty years - please explain your assertion. An age old debate amongst junk rig owners is which tack are they faster on. Finally "complex"? Everything looks complicated until we learn about it.
Tommyrot
Well-Known Member
Not seen any chafe after 3 years with the same rigging..... 
Complex!
Complex!
Madhatter
Well-Known Member
Psssst !!, anybody seen the lid for the worm can ??
Tommyrot
Well-Known Member
Mr Swain has strong opinions on the subject.
This is a quote from another message board.....
"Brent Swain is passionately hostile towards the junk rig, and has
debunked it on various message boards. I have debated this with him
on a couple of boards. I believe that he has made up many of the
"facts" that he uses in these debates. So, I wouldn't just e-mail him
and innocently tell him that you have or want to build a boat with a
junk rig-he will go right off the deep end if you do".
This is a quote from another message board.....
"Brent Swain is passionately hostile towards the junk rig, and has
debunked it on various message boards. I have debated this with him
on a couple of boards. I believe that he has made up many of the
"facts" that he uses in these debates. So, I wouldn't just e-mail him
and innocently tell him that you have or want to build a boat with a
junk rig-he will go right off the deep end if you do".
electrosys
Well-Known Member
On the question of complexity - as someone has already said this has much to do with familiarity ...
Perhaps this is best shown by examining what a typical junk rig doesn't have, when compared with an equivalent Bermudan rig.
So - there's no forestay, backstay, inner or outer shrouds, spreaders, bottle-screws and so on. There's no kicking strap, boom preventer, nor mast groove or sliders, nor reefing lines. Being a balance lugsail, there's no jib/genoa, and therefore no jib halyard, jib sheets, expensive jib winches, nor cleats. And there's no roller-reefing with it's associated tackle. If you're a hank-on person, then there's no sail-changing, with no sailbags being stored below. When running there's no spinnaker, hence no spinny halyard nor sheets, nor pole. No uphaul/downhauls nor launching or dowsing tackle. And no storm jib nor storm trysail.
The only reason that having the above gear on a boat is not considered in any way complex, is that it has become familiar.
Perhaps this is best shown by examining what a typical junk rig doesn't have, when compared with an equivalent Bermudan rig.
So - there's no forestay, backstay, inner or outer shrouds, spreaders, bottle-screws and so on. There's no kicking strap, boom preventer, nor mast groove or sliders, nor reefing lines. Being a balance lugsail, there's no jib/genoa, and therefore no jib halyard, jib sheets, expensive jib winches, nor cleats. And there's no roller-reefing with it's associated tackle. If you're a hank-on person, then there's no sail-changing, with no sailbags being stored below. When running there's no spinnaker, hence no spinny halyard nor sheets, nor pole. No uphaul/downhauls nor launching or dowsing tackle. And no storm jib nor storm trysail.
The only reason that having the above gear on a boat is not considered in any way complex, is that it has become familiar.
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cliffordpope
Well-Known Member
I can't help thinking it looks a bit silly on a modern plastic hull. But I'd love to have a real chinese wooden junk.
deep denial
Well-Known Member
Here's a link for you, to the junk association:
http://www.junkrigs.com/
http://www.junkrigs.com/
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