bekasi
Active Member
Any one had any experience with the above two makes of marine engines? Have narrowed my search to these two.
JOHN DEERE vs SCANIA
- Thread starter bekasi
- Start date
AndieMac
Well-Known Member
I have only heard favourable reports with John Deere marine installations.
bekasi
Active Member
Thanks,AndieMac......comparing the new John Deere 750hp (inline six) to the 800hp (vee configuration).The bore/stroke of the JD is huge!!Weight is similar and the JD is $30,000NZD cheaper!!
Anyone else with any views for the newbie...all will be appreciated very much.
Anyone else with any views for the newbie...all will be appreciated very much.
AndieMac
Well-Known Member
Guessing a repower?....what are you running? length, weight etc...
Someone may have other options/suggestions.
Are you in New Zealand or just up early?
BTW....G'day and welcome to the forum
Someone may have other options/suggestions.
Are you in New Zealand or just up early?
BTW....G'day and welcome to the forum
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bekasi
Active Member
Thanks..Am in Fiji Islands.Proposed new build...LOA 43ft,BOA 14.1ft,Alloy,weight should be approx 10.5 tons fully laden.
http://www.maxwell-hall.com/portfolio.php?boatId=65
Anyone can give me an idea on what approx will be the expected cruise/top speed with the 750hp JD?
Engine specs link:
http://www.deere.com/en_US/rg/ESC/SpecSheet/MarineProp/6135SFM75_A_S0_R0.html
http://www.maxwell-hall.com/portfolio.php?boatId=65
Anyone can give me an idea on what approx will be the expected cruise/top speed with the 750hp JD?
Engine specs link:
http://www.deere.com/en_US/rg/ESC/SpecSheet/MarineProp/6135SFM75_A_S0_R0.html
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Jim@sea
Well-Known Member
I am prepared for "the knowledgeable ones" to shoot me down in flames but are not some "John Deere" Engines a "Zetor" Engine. And if so they are "Brilliant"
As Zetor supposibly copied a Cummings engine, Cummings supposibly copied Perkins Engines. The common thing that they all share is that they have " wet liners" which means you can do an engine rebuild without taking the engine out.
It is unfortunate that Zetor cars had such a bad reputation that when I was buying a Forklift with a Zetor Engine it put me off, until a military friend informed me that the Zetor engine was put in the Russian T2 Tanks and it was supposed to be the best military engine in the world. Since then I have had 3 Zetor tractors and engine parts are cheap.
As Zetor supposibly copied a Cummings engine, Cummings supposibly copied Perkins Engines. The common thing that they all share is that they have " wet liners" which means you can do an engine rebuild without taking the engine out.
It is unfortunate that Zetor cars had such a bad reputation that when I was buying a Forklift with a Zetor Engine it put me off, until a military friend informed me that the Zetor engine was put in the Russian T2 Tanks and it was supposed to be the best military engine in the world. Since then I have had 3 Zetor tractors and engine parts are cheap.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Scania Vs Deere
I have been involved with Deere & Scania.
#1 Question to be answered is support.
#2 Question is support.
#3 Question is support.
After you have established competency of dealers (do they all have electronic service tools) in your intended cruising area you can consider the motors. From the ratings, both DI16 and 6135FM are just under 800 Hp high output ratings so I guess that this is for pleasure.
Technically both good solid EUI engines with little to choose between them. I tend to be an inline six person, however the Scania DI16 is an extremely nice V8 Both motors good for at least 25/30,000 hrs plus, life to overhaul with just regular servicing. Get some budget lube servicing costs from the dealers. Everything is a bargain until you get it home!
In terms of installation Scania wins hands down, the Deere is as tall as an apartment block!
If vessel was here in U.K. Scania would be my choice as I hate the Deere distributor, will be different for you in NZ.
What motors coming out..... DD strokers, both options will give you a huge improvement in socialbility and fuel economy.
If you need more detailed help PM me.
I have been involved with Deere & Scania.
#1 Question to be answered is support.
#2 Question is support.
#3 Question is support.
After you have established competency of dealers (do they all have electronic service tools) in your intended cruising area you can consider the motors. From the ratings, both DI16 and 6135FM are just under 800 Hp high output ratings so I guess that this is for pleasure.
Technically both good solid EUI engines with little to choose between them. I tend to be an inline six person, however the Scania DI16 is an extremely nice V8 Both motors good for at least 25/30,000 hrs plus, life to overhaul with just regular servicing. Get some budget lube servicing costs from the dealers. Everything is a bargain until you get it home!
In terms of installation Scania wins hands down, the Deere is as tall as an apartment block!
If vessel was here in U.K. Scania would be my choice as I hate the Deere distributor, will be different for you in NZ.
What motors coming out..... DD strokers, both options will give you a huge improvement in socialbility and fuel economy.
If you need more detailed help PM me.
moonraker 36
Well-Known Member
think latestart is the man you need.
ill just add this run saab(scania) cars for years never had any issues.
good solid engines.
hope you make the right choice and happy boating!!!
ill just add this run saab(scania) cars for years never had any issues.
good solid engines.
hope you make the right choice and happy boating!!!
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
What is the intended duty cycle and can you explain the logic in installing over 31/2 tonnes of motors in a 40ft vessel.
As to trying to work out meaningful consumption off a data sheet is just p*****g in the wind.
Apologies for missing your post with vessel spec.
bekasi
Active Member
single engine
Hi Latestarter,
Its a single engine we are planning on putting on.I think that weight is for twins.
Hi Latestarter,
Its a single engine we are planning on putting on.I think that weight is for twins.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Spec called for twin 625's I feel like a man with both arms tied behind my back.
Making such radical design decisions without 100% of the facts (appication and duty cycle) is very difficult.
I know jets are real popular where you are, my experience is far less positive, crew boats in US Gulf with triple 50 liter QSK's to a 30 ft puddle jumper here with 400 Iveco had one thing in common, all the performance was in the last few hundred rpm. Mid speed performance and fuel economy never a match for shafts. However Hamilton jet is what we have.
#1 Do you know of anybody using the big Deere 6135S on Hamilton jets. It is a 2,200 rpm rating, curve of some motors seems to work better than others on jets, not mentioning any names here.
#2 I still think you are using too much engine. For your own reasons you seem focussed on the Deere, but it is the wrong side of a tonne and a half. Cummins QSM11 Volvo D11 and Scania D12, all darn good motors and they will all offer you power around the 700 Hp power node with dry weight of around 1,100 kg. I have not looked at gearbox matching, but likely you will have to go to larger model @ 750 Hp, more weight. Weight absorbes power. Without running the numbers I would suspect that any of the three of the options would end up with similar operating speeds to one another and to the bigger JD option.
From the outside looking in I suspect that you have been 'sold' the Deere 6135, from all the long stroke long life BS. Take a step back, if you are in the tonne and a half engine league take a look at what CAT C18 or Detroit Series 60 have to offer with ratings just over 800 Hp to make the most use of your proposed gearbox application envelope..
To me the JD looks more and more like a big ground anchor.
Making such radical design decisions without 100% of the facts (appication and duty cycle) is very difficult.
I know jets are real popular where you are, my experience is far less positive, crew boats in US Gulf with triple 50 liter QSK's to a 30 ft puddle jumper here with 400 Iveco had one thing in common, all the performance was in the last few hundred rpm. Mid speed performance and fuel economy never a match for shafts. However Hamilton jet is what we have.
#1 Do you know of anybody using the big Deere 6135S on Hamilton jets. It is a 2,200 rpm rating, curve of some motors seems to work better than others on jets, not mentioning any names here.
#2 I still think you are using too much engine. For your own reasons you seem focussed on the Deere, but it is the wrong side of a tonne and a half. Cummins QSM11 Volvo D11 and Scania D12, all darn good motors and they will all offer you power around the 700 Hp power node with dry weight of around 1,100 kg. I have not looked at gearbox matching, but likely you will have to go to larger model @ 750 Hp, more weight. Weight absorbes power. Without running the numbers I would suspect that any of the three of the options would end up with similar operating speeds to one another and to the bigger JD option.
From the outside looking in I suspect that you have been 'sold' the Deere 6135, from all the long stroke long life BS. Take a step back, if you are in the tonne and a half engine league take a look at what CAT C18 or Detroit Series 60 have to offer with ratings just over 800 Hp to make the most use of your proposed gearbox application envelope..
To me the JD looks more and more like a big ground anchor.
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bekasi
Active Member
single shaft
Thanks alot for the positive reply latestarter1,
The engine I am looking for is for a single shaft and definitely not jets as in the specs.What do you think that I really should go for? Scanias & MTU very well looked after in Fiji .JD is a very new player and believe me ,I am definitely not sold into it as yet!
Thanks alot for the positive reply latestarter1,
The engine I am looking for is for a single shaft and definitely not jets as in the specs.What do you think that I really should go for? Scanias & MTU very well looked after in Fiji .JD is a very new player and believe me ,I am definitely not sold into it as yet!
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Picture coming together now.
Single Scania D12 700 1150 Kg 2300 rpm will do the job better than a Deere 6135 750 1550 kg 2200 rpm.
If you want to go MTU Detroit you COULD think about Series 60 825 but once again would need to big MG5114 all this would likely wipe out power advantage. The high rated Series 60 is also a little patchy on reliability. Nothing to do with base engine, nothing serious, just irritating weakness in some of the small hang on's at the highest ratings.
Single Scania D12 700 1150 Kg 2300 rpm will do the job better than a Deere 6135 750 1550 kg 2200 rpm.
If you want to go MTU Detroit you COULD think about Series 60 825 but once again would need to big MG5114 all this would likely wipe out power advantage. The high rated Series 60 is also a little patchy on reliability. Nothing to do with base engine, nothing serious, just irritating weakness in some of the small hang on's at the highest ratings.
AndieMac
Well-Known Member
I've noticed the bigger Nordhavns' fit the Detroit series 60 as a single installation, it must be a reasonable motor, as these boats are designed for serious long distance/remote cruising.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
I did not say Series 60 was a bad engine, however not entirely bomb proof. I have been involved with installation of 14 of them over a ten year period, mainly in commercial vessels.
At 600 Hp in crew boats they do a very good job, proving durable and reliable. 800 Hp and above we have had numerous SWAC problems, DD have paid for replacements without quibble almost as a continious process, however the SWAC failure seems to be ongoing problem without a difinitive fix.
U.S. Coastguard using high rated Series 60s in new class of lifeboats which has attracted adverse comment from some throttle jockey tournament sport fishermen who have reported injector failures and head cracking on their 825's. One must remember that when the big fish are running these guys have zero regard for engine duty cycles, however they are good at finding potential fuse in any motor.
AndieMac
Well-Known Member
I am interested in what you have to say LS, not much dicussed on the forum regarding the bigger cube motors.
When some of these (whatever brand) motors go bang, there are lots of cries of 'bad engines' all over the net, but little is asked about service intervals, quality of service products, etc..
There are also a lot of bad owners out there, and no doubt you would have seen your fair share
.
When some of these (whatever brand) motors go bang, there are lots of cries of 'bad engines' all over the net, but little is asked about service intervals, quality of service products, etc..
There are also a lot of bad owners out there, and no doubt you would have seen your fair share
.
Neil_Y
Well-Known Member
JD's were fitted in the latest Port of London Pilot boats built by Alnmaritec (Al cat) they are very happy with them, great economy and good performance.
They also used Seatorque drives which contributed to improving the expected performance figures.
Another option to add to your list would be to run fully composite bearings instead of rubber, as these are bedded on epoxy they eliminate the potential for corossion in the bearing carriers which we've seen on some bigger Al commercial boats. It's more difficult to quantify but race boats report less vibration and better get up and go onto the plane as they resist the tendency for the shaft to flex better than rubber. There are several suppliers/types search for marine composite bearings.
People (even naval architectes) put a lot of thought into the engine/gearbox and prop but often neglect the bit in between.
They also used Seatorque drives which contributed to improving the expected performance figures.
Another option to add to your list would be to run fully composite bearings instead of rubber, as these are bedded on epoxy they eliminate the potential for corossion in the bearing carriers which we've seen on some bigger Al commercial boats. It's more difficult to quantify but race boats report less vibration and better get up and go onto the plane as they resist the tendency for the shaft to flex better than rubber. There are several suppliers/types search for marine composite bearings.
People (even naval architectes) put a lot of thought into the engine/gearbox and prop but often neglect the bit in between.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
I am interested in what you have to say LS, not much dicussed on the forum regarding the bigger cube motors.
When some of these (whatever brand) motors go bang, there are lots of cries of 'bad engines' all over the net, but little is asked about service intervals, quality of service products, etc..
There are also a lot of bad owners out there, and no doubt you would have seen your fair share
There are very few bad motors out there, but plenty of **** installations. First object of finger pointing by owners is the engine when things go wrong.
Neil, I was not taking a pop at JD just does not seem right in this specific application. Also the big Deere motors owe nothing to the little mid range engines you have been involved with. The only issue I have with JD is the distributor in UK.
turbodiesel1
New Member
Out of interest whats so bad about JD's uk distributor?
mcneilal
New Member
Short answer is yes. Reviewed 22 various engines by way of a decision matrix and JD came out 6 points better. I operate jets in both high and low ambient water temps and the bigger block JD was the best selection. I am moving up to 48T @ 25 Kts. (cat) with 450 mm Jets at 75 % of MCR (twin eng application). Presently droping a 6135 (650 Hp)into a 32 Ft Aluminum with a 450 mm jet. Should be quite a ride.
