It's a wonder there are not more boating accidents.

"This was not some case of someone taking a calculated short cut with local knowledge".

I'm not taking the piss, at all.

How do you know it wasn't 'calculated'? Did you speak to them?

You may know something we don't, but, going only what on what you've told us, the possibilty exists that you are quite unjustly accusing other people of being stupid.

That's very different to saying you disagree with their choice of anchor.
 
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ProDave said:
Well whatever you say, I thought it was stupid.

The perch is there to warn you of rocks.

This was not some case of someone taking a calculated short cut with local knowledge to save a mile of sailing. these guys sailed right by the perch but inside it (right where the rocks are) but close enough to reach out and touch it. 10 feet further out the other side of the perch, they would have been clear of any danger.

It was just stupidity imho.

But go ahead and take the piss.

It's okay to come on here and criticise someone's anchor, or criticise their mooring technique, but talk about some serious poor navigation, and you just take the piss.

And the point with the mobo and no life jackets, is had they hit the rocks, they might really wish they had them. It's their choice not to wear them, but if you make that choice, then you really should try hard to avoid dangers like this.

I have to say most of the boating I see is done in a responsible and safe manner. It just astounded me to see 2 boats taking risks within 5 minutes of each other in the same place. (I guess the second boat saw the first one go there and followed him?)
Click to expand...

Hey ProDave don't let all the brave lionhearts & master navigators / seamen on here get to you :D

I for one won't be taking the piss. Few years back I spent a week in Portpatrick. In that time three, yes three, Mobos went aground on the rocks
at the entrance for the same reasons as you are explaining.
 
NealB said:
Wow...were you there, too? And like Pro-Dave, you know the reasons why two boats took the same route (on which.....urmmm....it seems there was no incident whatsoever)?
Click to expand...

my support was for someone who volunteered an experience to a forum based on first hand observation. who knows why the guys went inside the perch, but hey, this is a forum for exchange of ideas without being and a**h**e. Reading these forums I am often glad I am 15000 kilometres from you all
 
Sandyman....if I remember correctly (not been in there for about twenty years now), but isn't the entrance to Portpatrick drying? Using Pro-Dave's logic, wouldn't it therefore be stupid to go in there at all?
 
John.edwards said:
my support was for someone who volunteered an experience to a forum based on first hand observation. who knows why the guys went inside the perch, but hey, this is a forum for exchange of ideas without being and a**h**e. Reading these forums I am often glad I am 15000 kilometres from you all
Click to expand...

"who knows why the guys went inside the perch"...are you certain he knows this?


"this is a forum for exchange of ideas without being and a**h**e".....yes, agreed.
 
I'm a scientist...who knows certainty? but as I said, support our forum contributors for stimulating our ideas and suggesting how things may be better. I have seen lots of poor seamanship, and australia is more regulated than the uk for boating - both mobo and sail (with auxiliary power admittedly). any suggestions that make us think twice are welcome in my book.
 
John.edwards said:
I'm a scientist...who knows certainty? but as I said, support our forum contributors for stimulating our ideas and suggesting how things may be better. I have seen lots of poor seamanship, and australia is more regulated than the uk for boating - both mobo and sail (with auxiliary power admittedly). any suggestions that make us think twice are welcome in my book.
Click to expand...
I am an engineer... I make the stuff that scientists find out about into the stuff the artists can use.

The OP has his opinion others have a different one. Neither we nor he was the skipper of the vessel who took the decision to take that course. We don't know his draft nor do we know the depth of the tide over the rock. It was the skippers’ decision and his/hers alone! We all take decisions and need to justify them when called too by our insurance company or a court of law.

Full and frank discussions online are always informative as long as we understand that we can all hold a different opinion.
 
NealB said:
Sandyman....if I remember correctly (not been in there for about twenty years now), but isn't the entrance to Portpatrick drying? Using Pro-Dave's logic, wouldn't it therefore be stupid to go in there at all?
Click to expand...

To be honest I can't remember if it fully dries or not. I do remember that there are rocks on the port side of the entrance that are marked with
a buoy that dry. These were the rocks the mobo's grounded on.
 
John.edwards said:
I'm a scientist...who knows certainty? but as I said, support our forum contributors for stimulating our ideas and suggesting how things may be better. I have seen lots of poor seamanship, and australia is more regulated than the uk for boating - both mobo and sail (with auxiliary power admittedly). any suggestions that make us think twice are welcome in my book.
Click to expand...

Firstly, thank you for reverting to a more civilised style.

The trouble, to me, with the OP is that ProDave has made a nasty accusation against two fellow 'boaters' (I hate that word, but digress!).


It seems that Sandyman and yourself are quite happy to accept the accusation as true, purely because ProDave says it is.

From what ProDave tells us, however, to me, the case against the accused (of being 'stupid') is totally unproven.

It can be quite safe and seamanlike to cross drying areas at the right time, in the right conditions.

Indeed, when I did my Yachtmaster Practical exam (1989), we were told that to not take safe advantage of such shortcuts would count against us.

Is there not at least a possibility that ProDave has jumped to unfounded conclusions? Is it not possible that the other skippers knew exactly what they were doing, and being seamanlike?

ProDave's post might be interpreted as a recommendation that we all should stick to deep water channels only.

Personally, I think that would be bad advice.

Finally: yes, I certainly agree with you that being encouraged to "think twice" is a good thing. This could, of course, include, thinking twice before condemning someone else as, ''stupid", or as an "a**h**e".
 
NealB said:
Firstly, thank you for reverting to a more civilised style.

The trouble, to me, with the OP is that ProDave has made a nasty accusation against two fellow 'boaters' (I hate that word, but digress!).


It seems that Sandyman and yourself are quite happy to accept the accusation as true, purely because ProDave says it is.

From what ProDave tells us, however, to me, the case against the accused (of being 'stupid') is totally unproven.

It can be quite safe and seamanlike to cross drying areas at the right time, in the right conditions.

Indeed, when I did my Yachtmaster Practical exam (1989), we were told that to not take safe advantage of such shortcuts would count against us.

Is there not at least a possibility that ProDave has jumped to unfounded conclusions? Is it not possible that the other skippers knew exactly what they were doing, and being seamanlike?

ProDave's post might be interpreted as a recommendation that we all should stick to deep water channels only.

Personally, I think that would be bad advice.

Finally: yes, I certainly agree with you that being encouraged to "think twice" is a good thing. This could, of course, include, thinking twice before condemning someone else as, ''stupid", or as an "a**h**e".
Click to expand...

+1 agreed
 
ProDave said:
Well whatever you say, I thought it was stupid.

The perch is there to warn you of rocks.

This was not some case of someone taking a calculated short cut with local knowledge to save a mile of sailing. these guys sailed right by the perch but inside it (right where the rocks are) but close enough to reach out and touch it. 10 feet further out the other side of the perch, they would have been clear of any danger.

It was just stupidity imho.

But go ahead and take the piss.

It's okay to come on here and criticise someone's anchor, or criticise their mooring technique, but talk about some serious poor navigation, and you just take the piss.

And the point with the mobo and no life jackets, is had they hit the rocks, they might really wish they had them. It's their choice not to wear them, but if you make that choice, then you really should try hard to avoid dangers like this.

I have to say most of the boating I see is done in a responsible and safe manner. It just astounded me to see 2 boats taking risks within 5 minutes of each other in the same place. (I guess the second boat saw the first one go there and followed him?)
Click to expand...

I think i am with you on this one Prodave
Reading the thread i just find it amazing to see the blasé approach to life jackets

But back to bad seamanship
Years ago i ran aground in my Stella in the entrance to Brightlingsea ( anyone with a seafarer echo sounder would know why!!) it was near low tide so i only stuck there for a couple of hours
Being a fine day i kept the sails up & made out i was sailing to windward just so people would not know i had cocked up
At least 4 boats ran aground near me. One bloke was really annoyed shouting that i had ruined his Sunday by making out i was sailing. A motorboat doing 25 kts plus ran over the mud -it kicked up his outdrive, threw mud everywhere & he just kept going & did not have a clue what he had done as after 100 yards he was back in deep water
It just goes to show how careless ( me included) can be on a warm sunday afternoon with a light breeze
Best couple of hours fun ever
 
My guess would be that sailing boat from a mile or two down the coast knew exactly what he was doing, and was showing off that he knew exactly what he was doing. I am a bit guilty of this sort of thing myself, and do like to test the depth of the bottom from time to time to see what I can get away with. Since you know he is just down the coast, you could always ask him and report back.

Small motor boat would have not much draft and either knew what he was doing or saw a bigger boat with bigger draft going that way, and so knew he could get away with it. Is it Fortrose? I had a look at google maps, but could not see the perch on satelite photo.
 
If it is fortose don't be put off going there by the risk of hitting rocks. I experienced quite remarkable hospitality when I washed up there 20 years ago. There is a wee bit of navigation info here: http://www.chanonry.org.uk/navigation.html and in particular:

"If approaching.. the Harbour from Chanonry Point it is advisable to leave both the red buoys to port and then to steer towards the outer east mooring to ensure that you stand well off Craig an Roan reef which dries at 1.8 metres above Chart Datum and which is marked by a perch that is not easy to see in some conditions."
 
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Yes this is Fortrose I am talking about, not sure where PortPatrick entered the conversation.

As for "nasty accusation" I was just pointing out what I thought was an error of judgement, this is no more a "nasty accusation" than criticising someone for how they enter their berth in a marina.

I think there's a big difference between crossing a sand bank at a known state of tide, knowing you have enough room for your keel, and with a depth sounder to confirm the sand bank has not shifted or changed, compared to crossing rocks that are covered. The rocks will "appear" very suddenly and very harshly should you have misjudged it, and your depth sounder would not give you any warning.

Perhaps I have a little more respect for rocks than others? That stems from my introduction to sailing nearly 20 years ago on my wife's uncles boat. We were sailing very close to a sheer cliff, and I was thinking to myself "should we really be this close" Just as I thought that, I saw the jagged pointy top of a rock just breaking the water as we passed it just a few feet away. That's when I decided you need a healthy respect for rocks if you choose to go that close to the shore.

A quick bit of searching finds this photo of the spit in question at low tide. you can see the rocks at the end and the perch marking them. http://www.flickr.com/photos/tenbourbons/5762024779/ You can also see just how close to the shore this is.

Passing close by the perch inshore is just about the worst place to be, right by where the largest of the rocks are and is not somewhere I would choose to place my boat.

EDIT

Further to post#37

Fortrose harbour is NOT a difficult entrance so please come and visit us if you are passing, it is a very friendly club.
 
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