Is it illegal for someone to touch my boat?

[petery]

This post appeared on a legal newsgroup and there were no clear conclusions reached.

Any thoughts on this forum?

"
In the sailing newsgroup there has been a long-running debate over an
assault by a boat owner upon a marine insurance assessor. Although the
circumstances of the assault are of some small interest it's not that
aspect that interests me. Several commentators have stated that there
can be no legitimate reason for a anyone other than the owner to touch a
boat, and in particular that if any person interferes with the mooring
warps for a boat or steps aboard the boat without permission it is a fit
excuse for the owner to emply physical violence to remove the intruder.

Some commentators have gone further and have stated that if anyone
touches the mooring warps they are thereafter responsible for the hull
of the vessel.

These statements each and all appear to me to be bunkum. Surely there
are perfectly legitimate reasons for someone to step aboar a boat,
including but not limited to inspections by boatyard staff, or by other
boatowners whose own boat may be affected by the vessel in question.

The question of the mooring warps also interests me, can it really be
true that if someone sees a boat in danger of either floating free from
its mooring or of being left hanging from the dockside by its mooring
warps if the tide falls that they should take no action at all if the
owner cannot be found?

"

 

[steve_cronin]

NO

but it IS illegal to do damage, deliberately or by negligence.

Steve Cronin

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: NO

Illegal but not criminal, unless you do the damage on purpose

 

[billcowan]

Even if touches your ass, you would break the law if you hit him.

 

[BrendanS]

My boat yard are wonderful, and if they want to moor my boat or take control of it in anyway, they are welcome to do so. Same when I was on the Thames when it flooded. Rather they went out in difficult conditions on a punt on flooded Island and continually adjusted for 3 days in thigh waders on flooded pontoons in difficult conditions than my boat sank while I was in the US.

I'd expect that level of service from anywhere I kept my boat, and I don't expect to give them permission to do so. However, I've always had a great relationship with the people that look after my boat, and appreciate their professionalism and concern, and they treat me well in return

 

[fireball]

Touch - define touch ... a glancing touch as they pass or a deliberate act of placing themselves in contact with your boat ... a little dodgy me thinks - and petty if they are just walking by!

Boaring a vessel without permission - now that is more likely to be trespass... although I doubt you'd get a successful case against boatyard staff going about their normal duties.

I did board one boat at the end of last season - on a club mooring, as I passed I noticed his sail cover was flapping in the breeze - due to blow F8 that night and following day so I jumped on board and tied it up for him, checked his mooring lines, but didn't alter them. Saw the owner a week later and told him what I'd done - he had noticed the cover was tied up and thanked me for doing so. As I have known him for ages [fairly small club and even less moorings!] I felt happy doing this and safe in the knowledge that other owners are keeping an eye out and will take suitable action if required - without the need for specific permission, although anything major would've resulted in a telephone call first!
Just remembered - another owner had boarded the old boat and re-tied the tiller that had come loose - handy, cos it saved us launching the tender and we weren't going out to it for a while...

 

[ShipsWoofy]

Is that 'still ' going on?

It started about 12 months ago, the guy was a little like noah (ooer bad memories) from on here, he would give teeny snippets of info and field and argument, then another which would change the whole debate, this just went on and on.

The grey areas are vast, if you made it illegal to board a vessel on the pontoon that would also prevent rafting while the owner was away or someone nipping on and lashing down a dodger that was breaking free or a headsail which had started to unfurl (both actions I have carried out on many occasions to strangers boats).

Every case has it's own merits, you cannot just start belting someone who has gone aboard without knowing why they are there. But you do have a right to protect your property and or self.

 

[ashanta]

By the number of the responses you have received it seems to me that we could possibly pretend to be Irish (I'm from Irish parents so I can say I'm Irish) travellers and refuse to move. If the marina management cut your warps it could be like trying to evict the caravans off the land they are illigally occupying and you will get the whole support of the local council and the 3 main competeing parties.
Regards.
Peter.
(for any Irish reading my Surname is Boyle)

 

[Sybarite]

I am sure that trepass does apply but would be interpreted in the light of boating customs and tradition.

You can trepass to help as indicated in the posts below or you can trepass to vandalize or steal.

John

 

[graham]

Dont know about the law but if I am keptawake by a boat with loose halyards I nip aboard and tie them back,usually with the end of his mainsheet and a round turn and twenty five hitches.

One for any legal eagles ,is it permissable to manhandle a pushy sales person off your land?

I was working in my front garden recently when one came along,I politely explained I was very busy and didnt want to discuss anything with him.He doggedly refused to leave and kept up his patter as I ignored him and carried on working.Eventually I cracked and turned him around and "helped" him towards the gate .In no normal sense of the word did I assault him and believe I used the minimum force needed to make him leave.The shocked look on his face was priceless!

 

[oldharry]

But in todays compensation conscious climate, would it not be true that if I secured someones boat or gear, and it subsequently came adrift again and was damaged or lost, could I not then be held liable for it?

And if something goes wrong while I am aboard, and I am injured or killed as a direct result of trying to assist, who is liable? Particularly if the injury resulted from the negligence of the owner in the first place?

Take an actual scenario from last year where a small boat's foresaty fitting had failed. The mast was hanging at a considerable angle on the jib halyard, and was at grave risk of going O/B and damaging itself and the boat. I was able to contact the owner in this case, but had I gone aboard to try and secure it for him without his knowledge, and the mast had collapsed, and killed me, or I had been knocked OB and drowned - who would have been liable? Equally, had the thing gone OB while I was trying to fix it, holed the hull and sunk the boat as a direct result of my action - would I have been liable?

In the case of boatyard as in Brendans example, things are a bit different as you are in a contractual relationship as a customer of the yard. It would not exactly be in their interests to tell you: 'sorry, your boat sank last tuesday, but we did nothing because you were not here to give us permission to go aboard' They would have a professional responsibility to monitor and deal with problems arising in your absence, and insurance to cover themselves against any accidents.

I really do think this whole issue is about who is liable for what if anyone boards someone elses boat for whatever reason without actual permission.

 

[Guest]

So far the most accurate answer was the first one, Steve Cronin's.

In brief, it's not illegal. Unless the intruder does damage, in which case it becomes criminal trespass.

If you fiddle with the mooring warps, that's not illegal. But if the boat comes adrift and suffers (or causes) damage as a result, then you're probably liable to pay damages for negligence.

You don't have the right to 'defend' your property as someone suggested, you can only defend yourself. If the person is causing damage, in theory you can arrest them for committing criminal trespass, and use reasonable force in doing so.

If you physically eject someone from your boat, then you've committed assault.

 

[Neraida]

Us too, our windows are 15 feet away from the nearest mast and it's either go down and sort the offending halyard or wear earplugs (you can still hear the blummin thing tho) at times. Also sorted many a warp on badly tied up boats with threatening anchors.

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
But in todays compensation conscious climate, would it not be true that if I secured someones boat or gear, and it subsequently came adrift again and was damaged or lost, could I not then be held liable for it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you secured it negligently, the accident wouldn't have happened if you hadn't secured it, and it was foreseeable that the loss would occur as a result of your negligence.

[ QUOTE ]
And if something goes wrong while I am aboard, and I am injured or killed as a direct result of trying to assist, who is liable? Particularly if the injury resulted from the negligence of the owner in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Same principle as above. Owner may be liable if he was negligent, and if he could have foreseen that it could have injured or killed someone going to try and sort it out. On the other hand, he might avoid liability if he could show that your action in going to sort it out was not a reasonable thing to do that he could have foreseen, or he may reduce the damages if you were also negligent - eg. if you tried to sort out a gas leak by boarding and lighting a match to look for the leak.

[ QUOTE ]
Take an actual scenario from last year where a small boat's foresaty fitting had failed. The mast was hanging at a considerable angle on the jib halyard, and was at grave risk of going O/B and damaging itself and the boat. I was able to contact the owner in this case, but had I gone aboard to try and secure it for him without his knowledge, and the mast had collapsed, and killed me, or I had been knocked OB and drowned - who would have been liable? Equally, had the thing gone OB while I was trying to fix it, holed the hull and sunk the boat as a direct result of my action - would I have been liable?

[/ QUOTE ]

First question: was he negligent in not checking his forestay fitting? Answer: probably, depending on how it came adrift, when he last checked it, etc. Second question: was it reasonably foreseeable that someone might try to sort it out? Answer: probably. Third question: were you contributorily negligent? Answer: possibly - depends on for example whether you stood under the mast, should you have called boatyard personnel to help, did you try sorting it out in a competent way. If you were 50% contributorily negligent, then he only has to pay you 50% of the damages.

 

[Stemar]

[ QUOTE ]
If you physically eject someone from your boat, then you've committed assault.

[/ QUOTE ]Has the law changed? As a copper many years ago, I was taught that you can use reasonable force to remove a traspasser from your property. Is an aside, we were also taught that if I as a copper remove some yob for a little old lady, I'm acdting as a private citizen, not a copper.

In the context, any use of force would only be justified if the person failed to leave when asked.

 

[Guest]

I'm not an expert on this issue (any property/criminal lawyers out there?) but can't think why the police would have power to use reasonable force on someone who has not committed an offence. I would reckon that you are thinking of after you have obtained an eviction order, which is in effect a court order specifically giving authority to use reasonable force to evict someone from premises.

If you could do it anyway without going to court, there would be no need to have eviction orders.

Landlords would love it if they had the power to take it into their own hands to use reasonable force to evict squatters or tenants who had outstayed their welcome, without going to the courts first!

Of course, if someone has broken and entered, or otherwise committed a criminal offence (criminal trespass, burglary etc.) then one can use reasonable force to arrest them.

 

[muchy_]

It'll be a sad day when you cant board someones boat to help if they are not there. I like to think that if anything came loose on my boat then even a passing stranger would have the decency to climb on and tie it back for me.
But by the way things are going this day isn't that far away.

 

[ShipsWoofy]

I'll still do it for you, until I get abused by some skipper when tying down his canopy or summit. But so far, I actually get a buzz from helping someone that will never actually know who did it.

It has been done for me with a dodger and supported my belief in the human race!