Andrew_Fanner
New member
It depends where you get it. Can't speak for places I don't go but some suppliers are selling "white" with red dye.
Is everyone still buying Red?
- Thread starter gandy
- Start date
Sans Bateau
Well-known member
Oh! Did'nt know that, but of course you cant tell if it is white with dye, can you? But if its white there is no mistake. That is unless its green. When you come back from Ireland.
nicho
Well-known member
I asked the guys at Chichester Marina yesterday what the score was. To date they have had no further correspondence/directives from anyone, so it seems status quo rules!!!
glashen
New member
I wouldn't jump the gun before the legislation is introduced, that may be some time.
I have heard though would be interested to have it confirmed that the EU ruling is only that VAT must be imposed on Diesel for pleasure craft not all the rest of the excise (Road) duty payable.
I do though some sailors who for a combination of convenience and the perceived higher quality of road diesel do buy it from a garage.
I have heard though would be interested to have it confirmed that the EU ruling is only that VAT must be imposed on Diesel for pleasure craft not all the rest of the excise (Road) duty payable.
I do though some sailors who for a combination of convenience and the perceived higher quality of road diesel do buy it from a garage.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
AFAIK red is not as 'good' as white. Most (all?) road diesel in the UK is ULSD - ulrta low suphur, so less polluting. Red diesel, by and large, is higher sulphur, so more particualtes, more sulphur oxide emissions = more acid rain.
G
Guest
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
SBC, Nigel is the expert on this. But I am sure that red diesel is not only dyed red but also is just an agricultural/plant fuel. Road fuel has a more powerful bang plus it contains all the additives we currently squirt into the tank before we put the red in.
I am sure I read (or is that red) a thread that suggested in using road fuel, with its additives, we will be less likely to suffer the nasties that can grow in our fuel tanks now.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not an "expert" on this - I just make a living on it !!
Red Diesel specification is based on 0.2% sulphur stock ... base Gasoil stock with a Red Dye and Yellow Marker.
Then you have so-called White Diesel - which is Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel at less than 50ppm Sulphur.
Now to generalise as to be honest some suppliers do cross borders on this ... as tax will only be levied as it's sold onto market. So in fact an outlet could if they wish mix the diesels (actually they are all Gasoil ... one is "washed" to reduce the sulphur content at refinery). Both are checked for Micro-Bio activity for SRB and other "bugs" ... treated if necessary. All Gasoils contain bugs in fact ... only those treated later in the chain will be free of them.
Concerns were expressed when sulphur levels were being reduced that Lubrication qualities for pumps and general engine would be compromised ... and Germany was among the first to introduce Lubricity Specifications ... which are now adopted widely - particularly EU.
So lets consider differences .... averaging out shall we say ... expect about 44 - 48 cetane on Red ... expect about 48 - 53 cetane on ULSD. Sulphur on Red could be as high as 0.2% but averages we find in lab are about 0.1 - 0.15% ... and on ULSD averages are 30 - 48ppm ... sometimes lower than 30 ...
Does that help ?
SBC, Nigel is the expert on this. But I am sure that red diesel is not only dyed red but also is just an agricultural/plant fuel. Road fuel has a more powerful bang plus it contains all the additives we currently squirt into the tank before we put the red in.
I am sure I read (or is that red) a thread that suggested in using road fuel, with its additives, we will be less likely to suffer the nasties that can grow in our fuel tanks now.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not an "expert" on this - I just make a living on it !!
Red Diesel specification is based on 0.2% sulphur stock ... base Gasoil stock with a Red Dye and Yellow Marker.
Then you have so-called White Diesel - which is Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel at less than 50ppm Sulphur.
Now to generalise as to be honest some suppliers do cross borders on this ... as tax will only be levied as it's sold onto market. So in fact an outlet could if they wish mix the diesels (actually they are all Gasoil ... one is "washed" to reduce the sulphur content at refinery). Both are checked for Micro-Bio activity for SRB and other "bugs" ... treated if necessary. All Gasoils contain bugs in fact ... only those treated later in the chain will be free of them.
Concerns were expressed when sulphur levels were being reduced that Lubrication qualities for pumps and general engine would be compromised ... and Germany was among the first to introduce Lubricity Specifications ... which are now adopted widely - particularly EU.
So lets consider differences .... averaging out shall we say ... expect about 44 - 48 cetane on Red ... expect about 48 - 53 cetane on ULSD. Sulphur on Red could be as high as 0.2% but averages we find in lab are about 0.1 - 0.15% ... and on ULSD averages are 30 - 48ppm ... sometimes lower than 30 ...
Does that help ?
kcrane
Active member
Err, nope. Do you have a version in English?
gandy
Active member
Nigel,
Out of interest, any insider comments on "Super" Diesel fuels like BP's?
http://subsites.bp.com/ultimate/uk/diesel/default.asp
Out of interest, any insider comments on "Super" Diesel fuels like BP's?
http://subsites.bp.com/ultimate/uk/diesel/default.asp
G
Guest
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Nigel,
Out of interest, any insider comments on "Super" Diesel fuels like BP's?
http://subsites.bp.com/ultimate/uk/diesel/default.asp
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope !! Putting it simply. I stay out of Co vs Co after the debacle years ago when a certain Oil Co added a "metal" to gasoline to boost its performance and proceeded to destroy Vauxhall and other engine valves / seats etc. (some may remember it ?)
Nigel,
Out of interest, any insider comments on "Super" Diesel fuels like BP's?
http://subsites.bp.com/ultimate/uk/diesel/default.asp
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope !! Putting it simply. I stay out of Co vs Co after the debacle years ago when a certain Oil Co added a "metal" to gasoline to boost its performance and proceeded to destroy Vauxhall and other engine valves / seats etc. (some may remember it ?)
Sans Bateau
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not an "expert" on this - I just make a living on it !!
[/ QUOTE ]
Well you talk like an expert!
So, what is the bottom line? Is red that we are likely to buy in the marina a poorer cousin to the white we buy at the pumps for the car? Put another way, are we going to be getting a better product should white road fuel be delivered to us at the marina pump?
I'm not an "expert" on this - I just make a living on it !!
[/ QUOTE ]
Well you talk like an expert!
So, what is the bottom line? Is red that we are likely to buy in the marina a poorer cousin to the white we buy at the pumps for the car? Put another way, are we going to be getting a better product should white road fuel be delivered to us at the marina pump?
rickp
Active member
So it was announced as part of the budget, that we can use red until 1st November 2008:
Paragraph 5.135
[ QUOTE ]
A number of derogations to the Energy Products Directive, which allowed the Government to charge a reduced rate of duty on fuels used in private pleasure boats and planes, and on waste oils, expired on 31 December 2006. The European Commission has to date declined to renew the majority of derogations for all member states, including the UK’s derogations for private boats and planes. It has yet to respond on waste oils. The Government will implement the changes required on 1 November 2008, after further consultation with industry about the best way to minimise the longer-term compliance burden on the sectors concerned. Products Directive
[/ QUOTE ]
Rick
Paragraph 5.135
[ QUOTE ]
A number of derogations to the Energy Products Directive, which allowed the Government to charge a reduced rate of duty on fuels used in private pleasure boats and planes, and on waste oils, expired on 31 December 2006. The European Commission has to date declined to renew the majority of derogations for all member states, including the UK’s derogations for private boats and planes. It has yet to respond on waste oils. The Government will implement the changes required on 1 November 2008, after further consultation with industry about the best way to minimise the longer-term compliance burden on the sectors concerned. Products Directive
[/ QUOTE ]
Rick
Sans Bateau
Well-known member
Thanks Rick, you must be having a very boring day if you are listening to the budget line by line!
G
Guest
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not an "expert" on this - I just make a living on it !!
[/ QUOTE ]
Well you talk like an expert!
So, what is the bottom line? Is red that we are likely to buy in the marina a poorer cousin to the white we buy at the pumps for the car? Put another way, are we going to be getting a better product should white road fuel be delivered to us at the marina pump?
[/ QUOTE ]
That is not an easy question to answer as there are too many factors involved.
I would not run a High Performance Car engine on Red for too long ... as the higher sulphur may create acids etc. that cannot be got rid of so easy. In all honesty as regards engines - I'm like the rest ... chuck in fuel - start and go !! As to Road fuel better quality - yes in terms of lab bench.
But is it going to be road fuel that makes it to marina pump or just undyed same stock as red ? I cannot find any clear answer to that ...
As many marine engines around are based on older design - the change is conversation only really ... as it won't make much odds ... IMHO ... as lower sulphur level diesel is treated for lubricity etc. for each application it serves. But again is that what is going to be served up ?
I suspect that sometime down the road straight gasoil stock at 0.2% will be phased out by EU legislation maybe ... and all will be low sulphur stock ... but as yet ... I haven't seen any data .. All I can say is that Road diesel is coming down again in sulphur shortly ... to Ultra Ultra low ... with idea to attain near zero level later ...
Personally - I would worry more about price than quality !
/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not an "expert" on this - I just make a living on it !!
[/ QUOTE ]
Well you talk like an expert!
So, what is the bottom line? Is red that we are likely to buy in the marina a poorer cousin to the white we buy at the pumps for the car? Put another way, are we going to be getting a better product should white road fuel be delivered to us at the marina pump?
[/ QUOTE ]
That is not an easy question to answer as there are too many factors involved.
I would not run a High Performance Car engine on Red for too long ... as the higher sulphur may create acids etc. that cannot be got rid of so easy. In all honesty as regards engines - I'm like the rest ... chuck in fuel - start and go !! As to Road fuel better quality - yes in terms of lab bench.
But is it going to be road fuel that makes it to marina pump or just undyed same stock as red ? I cannot find any clear answer to that ...
As many marine engines around are based on older design - the change is conversation only really ... as it won't make much odds ... IMHO ... as lower sulphur level diesel is treated for lubricity etc. for each application it serves. But again is that what is going to be served up ?
I suspect that sometime down the road straight gasoil stock at 0.2% will be phased out by EU legislation maybe ... and all will be low sulphur stock ... but as yet ... I haven't seen any data .. All I can say is that Road diesel is coming down again in sulphur shortly ... to Ultra Ultra low ... with idea to attain near zero level later ...
Personally - I would worry more about price than quality !
/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Emjaytoo
New member
Although I'm told my VW Turbo Diesel will not run on it, can marine diesels run on Bio-diesel?
Or in other words can I put Mazola in the Volvo Penta?
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Or in other words can I put Mazola in the Volvo Penta?
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
G
Guest
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Although I'm told my VW Turbo Diesel will not run on it, can marine diesels run on Bio-diesel?
Or in other words can I put Mazola in the Volvo Penta?
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
There is a lot of hype around on Bio-Diesel ... and what it can / cannot do. We are only just starting to learn its "fruits and poisons" and so I wouldn't like to advise on it - but IMHO - I would blend it down ... with normal diesel. My reasoning being based on commercial specs where max % is allowed in fuel and also Motor Manufacturers references to it ...
There are some parts of BD that need special testing and careful monitoring at production stages ... that if get out of spec can have dire consquences for modern High perf. Diesel engine ....
Although I'm told my VW Turbo Diesel will not run on it, can marine diesels run on Bio-diesel?
Or in other words can I put Mazola in the Volvo Penta?
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
There is a lot of hype around on Bio-Diesel ... and what it can / cannot do. We are only just starting to learn its "fruits and poisons" and so I wouldn't like to advise on it - but IMHO - I would blend it down ... with normal diesel. My reasoning being based on commercial specs where max % is allowed in fuel and also Motor Manufacturers references to it ...
There are some parts of BD that need special testing and careful monitoring at production stages ... that if get out of spec can have dire consquences for modern High perf. Diesel engine ....
Andrew_Fanner
New member
And because HMG look like they will make Bio be charged at the road rate for boats I doubt that the makers of same will be interested in marine applications now. A significant opportunity to "green" a small sector of users lost by Grabber Gordon.
G
Guest
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
And because HMG look like they will make Bio be charged at the road rate for boats I doubt that the makers of same will be interested in marine applications now. A significant opportunity to "green" a small sector of users lost by Grabber Gordon.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know whole story - as let's be honest diesel price here is about 64p a litre - so for the boat isn't going to hurt me much ... (heating oil diesel is 34p - but can't get that without licence).... and I don't follow too closely. I only spec it for traders to sell !
As I understood it Bio had a lower rate that has just been increased to approach full rate ... probably because GB recognised the potential of Bio to grab a %age of market ? It is also blended into Green diesel ... albeit low %ages ... but still enough to create a hole in taxation.
I don't think boaters are targetted on this - as it's the wider picture that he sees and screws !
Bio - except in Germany - is a relatively new product for most and is still finding it's niche ... I think it will be a long time before full or significant blend %ages will be generally accepted ... ignoring those who are converting chip-pan oil etc.
Maybe it's time to start converting chicken sh*t and farm dung as one enterprising farmer did some years ago ... Then GB can have his Sh*t in one place !!!!
And because HMG look like they will make Bio be charged at the road rate for boats I doubt that the makers of same will be interested in marine applications now. A significant opportunity to "green" a small sector of users lost by Grabber Gordon.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know whole story - as let's be honest diesel price here is about 64p a litre - so for the boat isn't going to hurt me much ... (heating oil diesel is 34p - but can't get that without licence).... and I don't follow too closely. I only spec it for traders to sell !
As I understood it Bio had a lower rate that has just been increased to approach full rate ... probably because GB recognised the potential of Bio to grab a %age of market ? It is also blended into Green diesel ... albeit low %ages ... but still enough to create a hole in taxation.
I don't think boaters are targetted on this - as it's the wider picture that he sees and screws !
Bio - except in Germany - is a relatively new product for most and is still finding it's niche ... I think it will be a long time before full or significant blend %ages will be generally accepted ... ignoring those who are converting chip-pan oil etc.
Maybe it's time to start converting chicken sh*t and farm dung as one enterprising farmer did some years ago ... Then GB can have his Sh*t in one place !!!!
Andrew_Fanner
New member
>>>
As I understood it Bio had a lower rate that has just been increased to approach full rate ... probably because GB recognised the potential of Bio to grab a %age of market ? It is also blended into Green diesel ... albeit low %ages ... but still enough to create a hole in taxation.
I don't think boaters are targetted on this - as it's the wider picture that he sees and screws
>>>
Its Gordon tax harvesting. He proposes a lower off road rate for things that are not boats. What he seems to be avoiding is motivating a sector to go green by incentive as opposed to penalty.
As I understood it Bio had a lower rate that has just been increased to approach full rate ... probably because GB recognised the potential of Bio to grab a %age of market ? It is also blended into Green diesel ... albeit low %ages ... but still enough to create a hole in taxation.
I don't think boaters are targetted on this - as it's the wider picture that he sees and screws
>>>
Its Gordon tax harvesting. He proposes a lower off road rate for things that are not boats. What he seems to be avoiding is motivating a sector to go green by incentive as opposed to penalty.
G
Guest
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
>>>
As I understood it Bio had a lower rate that has just been increased to approach full rate ... probably because GB recognised the potential of Bio to grab a %age of market ? It is also blended into Green diesel ... albeit low %ages ... but still enough to create a hole in taxation.
I don't think boaters are targetted on this - as it's the wider picture that he sees and screws
>>>
Its Gordon tax harvesting. He proposes a lower off road rate for things that are not boats. What he seems to be avoiding is motivating a sector to go green by incentive as opposed to penalty.
[/ QUOTE ]
But I think the market size is important ... yes there are guzzling enormous hp engines out there etc. but in comparison to raod transport ? Boating fuel use is miniscule surely ? For him - is it worth the effort to section us out .. OK I would suggest it's a good Advert for green action - but it's effect is limited.
Anyway when did he care ?
>>>
As I understood it Bio had a lower rate that has just been increased to approach full rate ... probably because GB recognised the potential of Bio to grab a %age of market ? It is also blended into Green diesel ... albeit low %ages ... but still enough to create a hole in taxation.
I don't think boaters are targetted on this - as it's the wider picture that he sees and screws
>>>
Its Gordon tax harvesting. He proposes a lower off road rate for things that are not boats. What he seems to be avoiding is motivating a sector to go green by incentive as opposed to penalty.
[/ QUOTE ]
But I think the market size is important ... yes there are guzzling enormous hp engines out there etc. but in comparison to raod transport ? Boating fuel use is miniscule surely ? For him - is it worth the effort to section us out .. OK I would suggest it's a good Advert for green action - but it's effect is limited.
Anyway when did he care ?
Heckler
Active member
My local authority started using a bio mix last year, 25% veg with 75% diesel, also some additives to stop waxing etc.
see the link
http://www.denbighshire.gov.uk/Corp/Pres...27!OpenDocument
see the link
http://www.denbighshire.gov.uk/Corp/Pres...27!OpenDocument
