Is being a race officer a necessary part of sail racing

[roblpm]

There are race officers for hire.
It is not cheap though.
My old club runs series with a hired race team, it works out at around £300 per race AFAIK.

Around the solnet there is choice.
You can join a club where amateurs do the RO work, you can enter a series and pay per race.
The OP has chosen to enter races where he doesn't like the ground rules of the set up.

I suggest he either finds racing organised the way he wants, or finds out if the other owners would be willing to pay for professional race management.
The risk is, you lose boats being raced on a budget, you quickly lose critical mass.

I don't see why you couldn't hire a RO for your duty turn. The RYA must have a list?
There are some good people about.
Coaches, Judges etc
You might get someone who could do a talk/debrief afterwards?
A club I was involved in used to do that from time to time.
It cost a few quid but did a lot to raise standards IMHO.

Yes you are quite right. The club was there before me. So my problem not theirs necessarily. I wasn't suggesting not helping so we wouldn't need a whole race team as we would still be the assistants. However I didn't realise (and it certainly wasn't explained) when I started racing the extent that the race officer is essentially a legal position with responsibilities and quasi legal possible follow up.

Our club is actively trying to encourage yachts from the marina to join in with the racing so should be making it fun and enjoyable for new members.

So I will propose a system where we can pay someone else to take that responsibility and deal with protest meetings, redress etc.

I am now an equal member of a club with a couple of hundred members so I can have an opinion!! The other 199 don't have to agree and then I will consider changing how and where we race.

 

[roblpm]

a) I think you're probably right, it's always been done this way.
I've hardly done any week night racing, just never been able to get there in time. So all the racing I do is weekend stuff, and not with one club. We go wherever in the Solent has the big event. So we're fortunate that almost all the racing we do is with professional PROs. They still set some odd courses sometimes, but at least you basically know that you will get racing in if possible and as far as possible the course will have a decent beat.
Of course this is a different style of racing, where the entry fee for each weekend can top £100, the entry list is principally non members, and when run well the event can be a cash generator for the club. If you paid that sort of fees and got bad race officering...

b) I don't think it has anything to do with the tides or numbers of boats. It's more the level of sailing the competitors are doing. If your club is full of champion sailors who want ww/lw courses and square lines, then someone doing it once a year is unlikely to be able to give them that. If however your fleet is happy to have a course of allsorts, with maybe a reaching start, then any sailor who's done more than a couple of races ought to be able to give them that.

From your comments I would suspect that if the level of complaints are such, then it's going to drive people like you away from racing.

Exactly. The expectations of some are pretty high. And the expertise is not equal across the fleet. They do have growing numbers so the probability is that I am overly sensitive, compared to the others!

 

[awol]

For Rob there is only one game in town. It has been for many years a system where each boat in turn misses a race and in exchange for series average points, mans the starter box or committee boat. Unfortunately, the rota does not take into account experience or number of races sailed so it schedules neophytes and occasional sailors equally with the every-week-without-fail ones.
Getting crap after the race, possibly seen as banter by the perpetrators, is unacceptable but as they can't blame the rolling handicap system for their failure to win, who else can they vent at for their poor performance? At least it should keep the moaners on their toes for a perfect performance when their turn comes round.

 

[TallBuoy]

At Club level, it is foolhardy to put somebody who has never been on a committee boat into the role of RO and expect him/her to get everything right. For dinghy racing, we try very hard to ensure that everybody who races does their fair share of duties, which could include being ARO - they don't need to be competent, just to put flags up and down as required. After a while we like to think they will move on to being RO for simple events , and so on.

Some people hate it, and prefer to stick to RIB driving etc, which is also fine because we also need those!

For keelboats, we have a small number of us who run the events and our major Autumn series on a regular basis. This way we get consistency, which is important to the Club's reputation. Call me odd, but I actually enjoy spending 7 Sunday mornings in October and November on a rolling committee boat !!

 

[roblpm]

At Club level, it is foolhardy to put somebody who has never been on a committee boat into the role of RO and expect him/her to get everything right. For dinghy racing, we try very hard to ensure that everybody who races does their fair share of duties, which could include being ARO - they don't need to be competent, just to put flags up and down as required. After a while we like to think they will move on to being RO for simple events , and so on.

Some people hate it, and prefer to stick to RIB driving etc, which is also fine because we also need those!

For keelboats, we have a small number of us who run the events and our major Autumn series on a regular basis. This way we get consistency, which is important to the Club's reputation. Call me odd, but I actually enjoy spending 7 Sunday mornings in October and November on a rolling committee boat !!

Sounds sensible. Our club's policy is after the first season you are race officer. You are encouraged to take someone more experienced but you are still race officer. I don't think that is an adequate policy having reviewed the helpful input on here.

 

[lw395]

Sounds sensible. Our club's policy is after the first season you are race officer. You are encouraged to take someone more experienced but you are still race officer. I don't think that is an adequate policy having reviewed the helpful input on here.

I know it was only dinghies, but I was about 14 the first time I was race officer for a club race.

where abouts are you?
There must be a coach/RO/RYA judge in the area?
Have a word with your RYA regional bod. Whatever you think of the organisation as a whole there are some useful and good people in it.
My neighbour went to a regional race officers conference. That suggests to me there are qualified RO's about.

Sounds like part of the problems is a vicious circle:
imperfect RO> racers moan > RO's pander to noisiest racers > expectations of racers get more polarised > RO's get further from setting a good ordinary course etc etc???
A national coach or something might stamp a bit of authority on it and get things back on an even keel.

Do people in your club always race together? Our dinghy club was a bit like that, breath of fresh air to go to a few opens under different regimes.

 

[roblpm]

I know it was only dinghies, but I was about 14 the first time I was race officer for a club race.

where abouts are you?
There must be a coach/RO/RYA judge in the area?
Have a word with your RYA regional bod. Whatever you think of the organisation as a whole there are some useful and good people in it.
My neighbour went to a regional race officers conference. That suggests to me there are qualified RO's about.

Sounds like part of the problems is a vicious circle:
imperfect RO> racers moan > RO's pander to noisiest racers > expectations of racers get more polarised > RO's get further from setting a good ordinary course etc etc???
A national coach or something might stamp a bit of authority on it and get things back on an even keel.

Do people in your club always race together? Our dinghy club was a bit like that, breath of fresh air to go to a few opens under different regimes.

Thanks for your thoughts. I think I am probably the only person who thinks there is a problem!! I will quietly enquire amongst the quieter types. But probably by next season I will do my RO duty. Get moaned at. Moan on here.

It can be an annual ritual!

 

[lw395]

Thanks for your thoughts. I think I am probably the only person who thinks there is a problem!! I will quietly enquire amongst the quieter types. But probably by next season I will do my RO duty. Get moaned at. Moan on here.

It can be an annual ritual!

Give them as close as possible to an old skool olympic course.
So long as you give them at least one good beat and a gybe mark you have the right to tell them to STFU.

If humanly possible don't have a reaching start or two many marks to starboard.
I have an old book from the 50s which states that race officers should be lined up and shot for setting a reaching start.....

 

[GrahamD]

Thanks for your thoughts. I think I am probably the only person who thinks there is a problem!! I will quietly enquire amongst the quieter types. But probably by next season I will do my RO duty. Get moaned at. Moan on here.

It can be an annual ritual!

Doesn't sound like a great system to me. To feel more confident when your turn comes, you either need to be involved in race management more often than once a year, or try to get an experienced race officer to act as ARO with you. The real problem seems to be an inflexible application of this rule at your club which doesn't develop the skills and confidence of new race officers. Our club has a system of experienced ROs mentoring ROs who are finding their feet.

 

[Birdseye]

Birdseye and h4b. I totally agree that being part of a club involves helping and putting something back in. My issue is that the culture seems to be that "flak" for the race officer after the race is apparently the accepted norm.

Sadly modern standards of manners leave a lot to be desired and some competitive types resort to bluster and abuse. The only answer to this sort of thing is for the race officer / committee to disqualify them under fundamental rule 2.

As for the professional race officer, I would see this as being necessary only for open races of some standing. A good club should train its race officers as ours does - you dont get to officer a race without doing the training course and a fair few races as observer. It sounds as if your club is badly organised. It was unreasonable to throw you into the fray as they did and even more unreasonable not to protect you from yobbish behavious. Have a word with the Commodore

 

[DFL1010]

Sadly modern standards of manners leave a lot to be desired and some competitive types resort to bluster and abuse. The only answer to this sort of thing is for the race officer / committee to disqualify them under fundamental rule 2.

I'm sorry, but that's not correct quite correct.

The race committee absolutely could not disqualify a boat - that would be a job for the protest committee. Second, bad behaviour like this would be R69 territory, not R2.
Third, under R69, you are protesting a person (R2 would be a protest against a boat), and whilst DSQ is a possible outcome of a R69 hearing (R69.2(c)(2)), it's unlikely that this would be appropriate. Only a protest committee could protest under R69, based on either the RO's report of the incident, or if a protest committee member observed the incident.

However, R69 is serious business, and I'd suggest that there might be better ways to deal with this problem in the first instance.

 

[roblpm]

Doesn't sound like a great system to me. To feel more confident when your turn comes, you either need to be involved in race management more often than once a year, or try to get an experienced race officer to act as ARO with you. The real problem seems to be an inflexible application of this rule at your club which doesn't develop the skills and confidence of new race officers. Our club has a system of experienced ROs mentoring ROs who are finding their feet.

We did have an experienced ARO.

I would rather be ARO though!!

 

[lw395]

http://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/news/Pages/club-race-officer-courses-in-the-south.aspx

I can recommend these courses, (not just for Roblpm), I did one about 8 years ago, despite having run more races before the course than after, I still learned a few things.
As a racer, it never hurts to know what the RO is supposed to be thinking.

Clubs also need to think about what they are giving the RO to work with.
In my previous dinghy club, there was a fixed line, and being in a harbour, a limited array of marks, sailing instructions written for GP14s in about 1970....
There was moaning about bad courses, it could happen that there was no beat if the RO set a course for a SW wind when the wind was S for instance. Not easy to judge from the clubhouse, several times I found that XCweather gave a better guide than the clubhouse flagpole.
I tended to do safety boat duty, not RO, because then my crew could do a duty the same day.

Also what is a good course?
Some boats like a bit of reaching.
I wouldn't want to do w/l in an RS600.
'Pointless Harbour Tour' is OK for a change, week after week is a different matter.

 

[mrming]

Also what is a good course?
Some boats like a bit of reaching.
I wouldn't want to do w/l in an RS600.
'Pointless Harbour Tour' is OK for a change, week after week is a different matter.

To me a good course is one that allows as many opportunities for passing (after the start) as possible. That means a decent beat where you can pick a side (or the middle), and a downwind section where you can similarly make a choice. A procession where you follow each other around a range of marks is boring, although in some estuary / river areas (like ours) it can be unavoidable in certain wind directions. That's buoy racing for you - I'd still rather be doing it than working!

 

[TallBuoy]

Having to consider the tides as well as the wind can also make a ROund The Cans course interesting

 

[Birdseye]

I'm sorry, but that's not correct quite correct.

The race committee absolutely could not disqualify a boat - that would be a job for the protest committee. Second, bad behaviour like this would be R69 territory, not R2.
Third, under R69, you are protesting a person (R2 would be a protest against a boat), and whilst DSQ is a possible outcome of a R69 hearing (R69.2(c)(2)), it's unlikely that this would be appropriate. Only a protest committee could protest under R69, based on either the RO's report of the incident, or if a protest committee member observed the incident.

However, R69 is serious business, and I'd suggest that there might be better ways to deal with this problem in the first instance.

I am sure that you are right but at the same time your post illustrates the problem rather than the solution, the problem being an over legalistic approach to the whole thing. If someone is being obnoxious then whether its the race officer or the protest committee or simply the commodore handing them back their entry fee and telling them to go away in short jerky movements doesnt really matter. The obnoxious abuse of race officers simply shouldnt be tolerated. Ill mannered louts arent wanted in the club.

 

[DFL1010]

Well, bear in mind that R69 can lead to being banned from any racing for life (certainly one would have to misbehave quite badly to get that far), so it's quite important to get things right - it would be very annoying to have a R69 protest thrown out because the protest committee failed to follow the correct procedure. And, since the outcomes can be very serious indeed, getting the procedure right is vital.

However, I note that again the 'we don't do protests' line coming out, and I think that might be a cause. Imagine the RO makes an error, and that leads to an unfair outcome from the race. There's proper procedure in place for this: fill in the form requesting redress, have a hearing and redress can be granted. Remove that as an outcome, and there remains only one possible way to discuss the incident: at the bar. This does not of course excuse their behaviour, but I think it might be a reason for it.

As for telling people they're 'unentered', well, it sounds nice, but it does raise some serious questions - under what circumstances would a boat no longer be welcome? What kind of hearing would you go through (*cough* R69)? What kind of appeals would you have? What if someone is unentered because they start winning? Etc etc.


I was having a think about this this evening, as I was trying to race, but the race management was not especially good - there were errors from start to finish, quite literally. It was certainly a frustrating exercise in futility, and there were a lot of unhappy punters.

 

[dom]

I agree that tackling this under the rules is fraught with problems and almost certain to be overturned on appeal with all of the ensuant embarrassment for the club. I'd advise getting a legal bod on board for such a hearing, which in most cases is ridiculous.

Far better to get a senior member of the club (soft spoken, articulate, balanced, intelligent, white jumper wearing, commodory type if poss) to have a quiet word with the entire crew; the entire bit being important here as it is then much easier to accurately identify the source of the trouble, which in my experience is inevitably a single person. A stern but amiable chat about sportsmanship, manners and etiquette and 80% of the time the rest of the crew will knock some manners into the ringleader with no further ado. Quite funny to see "Mr Hot-head" explode at the gybe mark only to have his anger instantly doused by his own crew!

If that doesn't work then gradually but fairly increase the heat up to the point of kicking the ringleader out of the club -- it rarely comes to this. At this point a grudging apology of some sorts is usually forthcoming, which said commodore will naturally accept gracefully but in all likelihood still ask the transgressor to leave.

...and peace breaks out once more ...hopefully!!

 

[roblpm]

Well, bear in mind that R69 can lead to being banned from any racing for life (certainly one would have to misbehave quite badly to get that far), so it's quite important to get things right - it would be very annoying to have a R69 protest thrown out because the protest committee failed to follow the correct procedure. And, since the outcomes can be very serious indeed, getting the procedure right is vital.

However, I note that again the 'we don't do protests' line coming out, and I think that might be a cause. Imagine the RO makes an error, and that leads to an unfair outcome from the race. There's proper procedure in place for this: fill in the form requesting redress, have a hearing and redress can be granted. Remove that as an outcome, and there remains only one possible way to discuss the incident: at the bar. This does not of course excuse their behaviour, but I think it might be a reason for it.

As for telling people they're 'unentered', well, it sounds nice, but it does raise some serious questions - under what circumstances would a boat no longer be welcome? What kind of hearing would you go through (*cough* R69)? What kind of appeals would you have? What if someone is unentered because they start winning? Etc etc.


I was having a think about this this evening, as I was trying to race, but the race management was not especially good - there were errors from start to finish, quite literally. It was certainly a frustrating exercise in futility, and there were a lot of unhappy punters.

This is what seems odd to me.

Millions of pounds worth of boats out racing.

Race officers who might have been racing for a couple of years and do race officer duty maybe once a year.

Why not pay for a race officer. There could still be a rota for the assistants to keep the cost down.

Instead amateurs are used. And then the moaning starts. I understand its part of the culture but it seems weird to me.

 

[lw395]

This is what seems odd to me.

Millions of pounds worth of boats out racing.

Race officers who might have been racing for a couple of years and do race officer duty maybe once a year.

Why not pay for a race officer. There could still be a rota for the assistants to keep the cost down.

Instead amateurs are used. And then the moaning starts. I understand its part of the culture but it seems weird to me.

Is it not a system that's worked OK for years, then you've come along, flashed a lot of cash on your boat in a couple of years and started moaning?
You chose to join the system.
Now, because you can't or don't wish to fulfil your duty under the system, you want to inflict a lot of cost on everyone else.

It's quite likely that the reason there is no professionally managed racing in the area is because there is not sufficient demand from people prepared to pay for it.
There's also a finite number of professional RO's.
You will find that they are all busy in July and August, so you won't be running a club evening race while they're busy doing Cowes, Dartmouth, various nationals.

The moaning doesn't start when amateurs are involved, it starts when some members don't take their obligations to other members seriously.
Or when the club management does not take its obligations to the racers seriously.

And paying for an external RO may not give good racing. If you get someone who doesn't know the water as well as a local, you won't get as good a course.
I've sailed a few events with paid RO's where the management has been indifferent. The best RO's tend to be people who have done a lot of racing themselves. Most of those don't want or need to give up racing to get paid a few quid to run yours.