Iron X 100Ah LiFePo4 battery with BMS and Heater

Refueler

Refueler

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Good deal on a Life battery - but no manual with it ... considering it had Bluetooth BMS and Heater ...

12.8V-100Ah LiFePO4 Lithium Battery VISION LFP12-100SEV-HBT (1280Wh) L306 W169 H215 (with Bluetooth & Heat) - www.akum.lv

Its a good size and weight is a bit more than ideal for the dinghy - but its useable. Once I get a test run done and see what power has been used - then I will have better idea of what smaller size LiFe battery to get. This one can then be used for another boat etc.

The question I have now is the charging of it - two scenarios :

1. Charge on boat

2. Charge at home.

The charge at home - as long as the BMS plays well - my Programmable Lithium chargers can look after it ... BUT I have seen too often the BMS cause the Programmable charger to default out.

The charge on boat ? Here we have an interesting situation ...

This is the reply I rec'd from the dealer :

Hi,
I'm almost sure that your Victron can charge LiFePO4. We also sell them, these chargers, high quality! Your Victron charger should have Bluetooth, download the application, everything will be written there, all the instructions.
BMS, built into the battery! You don't have to worry about anything! Just plug the charger into the network when you need it. The battery itself will decide whether to turn on the heating or not. This battery is specially designed for Northern Europe, if you have to charge it in cold conditions.
Main conditions!!! Do not leave the battery in a discharged state for a long time! Charge it as soon as possible after a deep discharge! This is very important! Since the battery contains a lot of electronics, self-discharge is quite high, since these electronics are powered by the battery itself. Check the condition of your battery every 3 months!

You can send me the model of your charger and I will tell you more.

Thanks
Which I think you can agree - doesn't really help me at all ....
The Victron charger at present is looking after 3 Lead acids ... 1 for starter, 2 as a bank for domestics / navigation. This means the Victron is set for Lead Acid and not for LiFe. Would the BMS be OK to use the spare 3rd outlet on the Victron - even though it will be in Lead Acid format ?
 
It is a Saturday in August, the sun for once is shining and the temperature is above 20°C some people have been or are out on their boats.
 
If you use a charger with lead acid settings, it will want to put the battery on float, which would push it above the safe voltage and cause irreversible cell damage. But the BMS should detect this and take the battery offline.
It's not really ideal to be relying on the BMS as a charge controller, it should be treated as a last line of defence that, in an ideal world, never actually does anything except a bit of cell balancing.

So it's unlikely to be a disaster, and you could do it as a temporary measure, but in the long run you'd probably want to come up with a different solution. You also wouldn't want to leave the battery plugged in to this charger for long periods, it will shorten cell life and increase the chances of something going wrong.
 
I've been looking at various sellers for DC-DC charger with 14.6v LiFe setting ..... surprised at the prices !

Looking for suggested DC-DC charger .... maybe I can find in an EU outlet ....

My Lithium Programmable chargers are all 12 - 18v input power - so at a push - I could use one on the boat - powered from the lead acid bank, but limited to when engine running to avoid discharging the lead acids too far ..
 
Thoughts about when the charger will be working on board.

I want the LiFePo4 to be charged - but I do not want it draining either the starter or domestic bank on board when sailing without engine ... 100Ah battery could drain more than the useable capacity of my two 75Ah Lead Acids domestic. It seems that I should look to only charging the battery when hooked up to mains OR dedicate a solar array to it.

But it will not help me in Stockholm Archipelago unless I go for Solar ... most stops in the islands are without mains electric.
 
Refueler said:
I've been looking at various sellers for DC-DC charger with 14.6v LiFe setting ..... surprised at the prices !

Looking for suggested DC-DC charger .... maybe I can find in an EU outlet ....

My Lithium Programmable chargers are all 12 - 18v input power - so at a push - I could use one on the boat - powered from the lead acid bank, but limited to when engine running to avoid discharging the lead acids too far ..
Click to expand...
14.6V is too high.
 
Refueler said:
Good deal on a Life battery - but no manual with it ... considering it had Bluetooth BMS and Heater ...

12.8V-100Ah LiFePO4 Lithium Battery VISION LFP12-100SEV-HBT (1280Wh) L306 W169 H215 (with Bluetooth & Heat) - www.akum.lv

Its a good size and weight is a bit more than ideal for the dinghy - but its useable. Once I get a test run done and see what power has been used - then I will have better idea of what smaller size LiFe battery to get. This one can then be used for another boat etc.

The question I have now is the charging of it - two scenarios :

1. Charge on boat

2. Charge at home.

The charge at home - as long as the BMS plays well - my Programmable Lithium chargers can look after it ... BUT I have seen too often the BMS cause the Programmable charger to default out.

The charge on boat ? Here we have an interesting situation ...

This is the reply I rec'd from the dealer :

Hi,
I'm almost sure that your Victron can charge LiFePO4. We also sell them, these chargers, high quality! Your Victron charger should have Bluetooth, download the application, everything will be written there, all the instructions.
BMS, built into the battery! You don't have to worry about anything! Just plug the charger into the network when you need it. The battery itself will decide whether to turn on the heating or not. This battery is specially designed for Northern Europe, if you have to charge it in cold conditions.
Main conditions!!! Do not leave the battery in a discharged state for a long time! Charge it as soon as possible after a deep discharge! This is very important! Since the battery contains a lot of electronics, self-discharge is quite high, since these electronics are powered by the battery itself. Check the condition of your battery every 3 months!

You can send me the model of your charger and I will tell you more.

Thanks
Which I think you can agree - doesn't really help me at all ....
The Victron charger at present is looking after 3 Lead acids ... 1 for starter, 2 as a bank for domestics / navigation. This means the Victron is set for Lead Acid and not for LiFe. Would the BMS be OK to use the spare 3rd outlet on the Victron - even though it will be in Lead Acid format ?
Click to expand...
You would be better off to set the charger for LFP, it won't be far out for LA, providing you use the appropriate LFP settings.

I would not use El Cheapo LFP cells or BMS. Fit quality once.
 
PaulRainbow said:
You would be better off to set the charger for LFP, it won't be far out for LA, providing you use the appropriate LFP settings.

I would not use El Cheapo LFP cells or BMS. Fit quality once.
Click to expand...

I considered resetting to Lithium on the Victron - but then you lose the extra modes that Lead Acid benefits from .. but certainly worth a punt ! Will be resetting mode next time on board.

The battery and BMS is not 'el cheapo' .... it is a recognised brand and was discounted price. I agree its not priced in the high bracket.

Interesting that you say 14.6v is too high .... many LiFePo4 chargers out there are rated at 14.6v .... and I am not talking about cheap chargers either !
 
Refueler said:
I considered resetting to Lithium on the Victron - but then you lose the extra modes that Lead Acid benefits from .. but certainly worth a punt ! Will be resetting mode next time on board.

The battery and BMS is not 'el cheapo' .... it is a recognised brand and was discounted price. I agree its not priced in the high bracket.

Interesting that you say 14.6v is too high .... many LiFePo4 chargers out there are rated at 14.6v .... and I am not talking about cheap chargers either !
Click to expand...
14.6v = 3.65v per cell, which is the absolute highest voltage you should ever subject the cells to, and is used for initial top balancing. Routinely charging to that level is likely to shorten the lifespan of the cells without appreciably increasing useful capacity.
 
Sea Change said:
14.6v = 3.65v per cell, which is the absolute highest voltage you should ever subject the cells to, and is used for initial top balancing. Routinely charging to that level is likely to shorten the lifespan of the cells without appreciably increasing useful capacity.
Click to expand...

Standard Life Cell is max 3.6v .. agreed.

But I assumed the 3.65v as the margin to overcome resistance to final part of charge. The problem of course is that Life does not react to that higher voltage as a Lead Acid does ... LA will produce heat and start to gas ... but a Life cannot do that.
 
Refueler said:
Standard Life Cell is max 3.6v .. agreed.

But I assumed the 3.65v as the margin to overcome resistance to final part of charge. The problem of course is that Life does not react to that higher voltage as a Lead Acid does ... LA will produce heat and start to gas ... but a Life cannot do that.
Click to expand...
14.2V / 14.3V is fine for LFP without stressing them. Most Victron chargers default to 3.55V per cell.
 
mmmm received this from dealer :

Hello!

You cannot charge several different types of batteries at the same time! This is impossible! Moreover, you can only charge identical batteries at the same time, from the same manufacturer, of the same capacity, manufactured at the same time from the same batch, and no more than 4 pieces in a chain!

I understand his points - but not fully agree as the outputs can charge different size batterys but will receive charge based on same format. Anyway I answered him :

I contacted a guy in UK – who I know installs / services and maintains Victron and LifePo4 systems … his advice was to change the Victron Charger to have all 3 outputs as LiIon format. That way the LiFePo4 battery will be charged correctly and the other two Lead Acid’s will just receive a slightly lower charge level than normal.

My idea : If I ever need to charge the Lead Acids to 100% .. I just disconnect the LiFePo4 and reset the Victron to Lead Acid.

The only other way is to install a dedicated LiFePo4 charger separately.

I think Pauls idea to change format to LiIon is the way to go .. the LiFe battery will have other uses as well as on board as its not so heavy to take on / off the boat ...
It may be that I get a smaller one - ~ 30 - 40Ah for dinghy use ... and this 100Ah one gets used with my model gear.
 
Refueler said:
mmmm received this from dealer :

Hello!

You cannot charge several different types of batteries at the same time! This is impossible! Moreover, you can only charge identical batteries at the same time, from the same manufacturer, of the same capacity, manufactured at the same time from the same batch, and no more than 4 pieces in a chain!

I understand his points - but not fully agree as the outputs can charge different size batterys but will receive charge based on same format. Anyway I answered him :

I contacted a guy in UK – who I know installs / services and maintains Victron and LifePo4 systems … his advice was to change the Victron Charger to have all 3 outputs as LiIon format. That way the LiFePo4 battery will be charged correctly and the other two Lead Acid’s will just receive a slightly lower charge level than normal.

My idea : If I ever need to charge the Lead Acids to 100% .. I just disconnect the LiFePo4 and reset the Victron to Lead Acid.

The only other way is to install a dedicated LiFePo4 charger separately.

I think Pauls idea to change format to LiIon is the way to go .. the LiFe battery will have other uses as well as on board as its not so heavy to take on / off the boat ...
It may be that I get a smaller one - ~ 30 - 40Ah for dinghy use ... and this 100Ah one gets used with my model gear.
Click to expand...
Morning Nigel. The advice in paragraph one is definitely wrong, in fact, it's ridiculous. I'll bet there isn't many leisure boats, if any, that comply with those daft conditions. I'd normally set LA to 14.4V Abs and 13.4V float, if you set the charger to a custom profile of 14.3V Abs and 13.0V float that's good for LFP and the LA will be fully charged and happy enough to float at 13.0V.
 
PaulRainbow said:
Morning Nigel. The advice in paragraph one is definitely wrong, in fact, it's ridiculous. I'll bet there isn't many leisure boats, if any, that comply with those daft conditions. I'd normally set LA to 14.4V Abs and 13.4V float, if you set the charger to a custom profile of 14.3V Abs and 13.0V float that's good for LFP and the LA will be fully charged and happy enough to float at 13.0V.
Click to expand...

OK ... thanks ... looks like a winner ...

Oh - he sent this after :

"That is, if you have several different batteries on board, they must be charged separately!"
I replied :

"Hi Yury,
The Victron I have – has 3 separate charge outputs .. (my boat)

Output 1 is charging 75Ah Lead Acid as my engine start battery.
Output 2 is charging two parallel 75Ah Lead Acid as my services / domestic power
Output 3 is not in use – but would also be Lead Acid unless I change all 3.

The only rule is that when type of battery is set on the Victron – that type is for all 3 outputs. The size (Ah) can be different on each output …

Nigel"
 
TBH - it boils down to how often do I really need to charge the LiFe battery ... how often will it actually be used.

I can buy a separate single LiFe mains powered charger and install it - leaving the Victron as is ... but is it really worth it ? Or I buy a charger that I just plug in on board - take off boat with the battery if used elsewhere ...

As I posted before - most LiFe chargers I see online are set at 14.6v ... not so good ... will have to look further .... but meanwhile - will set Victron as suggested.
 
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