iron nails in teak decks

[Mick Nash]

Any thoughts on how to remove iron fastenings from a 50 year old, 1inch(2.5cm) teak deck. Through wear the plugs are now popping out, leaving the nails very close to the surface and prone to leak. It is possible to hammer these further in by running a small hole saw over the nail head to remove some wood and then an using an iron drift but this occasionally splits the wood. The beams are very hard oak and are resistant to this. This whole operation seems very brutal.

 

[Tranona]

First thing is to find the person that built the boat and ask him why he used such an unsuitable method of fastening! Mind you it has lasted 50 years, so he probably knew he would not be around when the inherent weakness showed itself.

Does not really help you, but not sure there is anything else you can do. The nails won't come out, nor go in further easily so at some point the only solution will be to remove the deck and re-do it properly with screws.

 

[petehitch]

I have had the same problem with a 6.5cm afromorsia deck. I tried replugging with epoxy and wooden plugs which has lasted about 6yrs. I am now experimenting with filling the holes with a mixture of epoxy and sawdust, which seems to work. If you get the right mix it looks ok and certainly cures leaks.

 

[Mick Nash]

Thanks,
I have already considered that option. It is great to hear that it works Time to get going

 

[Mick Nash]

Escaper is 13 metre Danish cutter built for Eric Williams, the man who escaped from Stalag Luft lll POW camp and who wrote the wooden Horse. The yard specialised in fishing boats for the Greenland and Iceland fisheries. It is interesting to note that these iron fastenings have not rusted or moved in 50 years. Are they really so unsuitable?

 

[Tranona]

Yes, because they fail to take into account the fact that - as you have discovered, teak wears down over time and usage, so it is inevitable that at some point the fastenings will come near the surface. As you have also discovered they are just about impossible to move.

While filling the holes with epoxy and sawdust filler rather than teak plugs set in sealer, may reduce leaks, you are only delaying the evil day - in fact you may make it worse. Your epoxy based plugs will be far harder than the surrounding teak, which will continue to wear leaving little hard lumps that don't wear!

It is perhaps a mistake to think that boats built by "commercial" yards were built to last - rather the opposite, they were built to provide a commercial return. You only have to look at those sepia photos of North Sea and Baltic fishing ports in the heyday of the early part of the last century to realise how many thousands of boats that were built in the period have now disappeared, not just because the fish have gone, but because the boats were never built to last. Such boats have the appearance of solidity, but it is because it was quicker and cheaper to use large section timber rather than design the boats to use material efficiently. Such boats will slowly decay in private use rather than fall apart in commercial use, but they will still need ongoing replacement to keep them working.

 

[oldfrank]

I've had a very similar problem - and I fear that I agree the only long term solution is to take the deck off and start again. The risk that you run in taking a short term solutions is that by the time you've run out of other options, a combination of decks leaks and iron will also have deteriorated the deck beams ... I've just replaced all bar one. Rainwater causes all sorts of problems - at least salt water helps preserve the wood.

 

[tillergirl]

I fear Tranona and Oldfrank are right. TG's laid teak deck was fastened with steel screws in 1964. By 1992, it was impossible to keep the deck water tight. Best I managed with fixes was six months and that was debatable. I had to drill over each screw to release the teak which was not reusable. The unseen fresh water damage below required replacement of half beams, the starboard beam shelf and both gunwales. It was built for a period of time and that time is up. to be positive, the best thing for TG's second semester was the high quality marine ply deck (sapele) which has tightened her up, not just on the deck leaks but overall. I am sure a second bout of leaky decks could easily bring about premature demise.

 

[petehitch]

"First thing is to find the person that built the boat and ask him why he used such an unsuitable method of fastening! Mind you it has lasted 50 years, so he probably knew he would not be around when the inherent weakness showed itself."

So what fastenings would you have used and how long would they have lasted?

 

[Tranona]

"First thing is to find the person that built the boat and ask him why he used such an unsuitable method of fastening! Mind you it has lasted 50 years, so he probably knew he would not be around when the inherent weakness showed itself."

So what fastenings would you have used and how long would they have lasted?

Well, in retrospect I would not have built a boat in that way at all, if the intention was that it should last 50 years in pleasure use and be capable of easy on-going maintenance and repair. And it is not the fastenings that have failed, they are still doing their job of holding the teak to the oak.

However, the boat was built in a tradition of fishing boats that had to be cheap and strong and last maybe 20-30 years before they were scrapped. Teak was used for decks because it was cheap and easy to build - requiring no further finishing. It would potentially last the 20 years of constant use without replacement, particularly as it would be constantly washed with salt water. All the construction would need to be cheap, easy to work and strong. No sophisticated materials were available and iron fastenings would be ideal. Again cheap, strong and once they are in they stay in.

In pleasure use the boat sits in the sun (particularly as it is now in the Med rather than the cold, damp, Baltic), being rained on from time to time by fresh water. Wear is relatively slow because it is not used regularly. Eventually however, the fresh water gets in, encouraged by the expansion and contraction of the teak which opens up the seams and causes the plugs to pop up.

After 50 years (twice the expected life span of a working boat) you get the OPs problem. A failing deck and no reasonable mechanism for repairing it - only on-going tactics for keeping the decay under some sort of control.

 

[narcer]

I would knock them home and then re-plug each one - err maybe a 1000 or so ?

I had a similar problem when I re-fitted a teak deck (re-caulked) on a Endurance 44 built in ´84. In each profile they had used a hidden nail at a 45 degree angle to pin each plank in postion as it set on the Sika or whatever they used. Terrible job - in the end I had to grind the head off every one (every half meter) as with the wear they were emerging right on the edge between the Sika and the teak leaving a rusty little hole.

Good luck.

 

[Seanick]

Laid decks are a 'Service Item', just like a cambelt or tyres on a car.

Your deck has reached (or indeed passed) its service life and is due for replacement.

Look on the bright side, some JeanWestBavias decks have been enthusiastically scrubbed through in less than ten years. Yours is doing well!

Re choice of material at build, bear in mind that when the boat was built Labour was 20% of the total cost and materials were 80%. Nowadays those figures are reversed.
I think those iron nails have done well. Silicon bronze would have been due for replacement soon, but of course in theory they would have come out, but in practise the heads usually snap off!

I would try a 1/2" drift and a lump hammer. You may get them down a few millimeters without drilling.
Bon Chance!

 

[ccscott49]

Laid decks are a 'Service Item', just like a cambelt or tyres on a car.

Your deck has reached (or indeed passed) its service life and is due for replacement.

Look on the bright side, some JeanWestBavias decks have been enthusiastically scrubbed through in less than ten years. Yours is doing well!

Re choice of material at build, bear in mind that when the boat was built Labour was 20% of the total cost and materials were 80%. Nowadays those figures are reversed.
I think those iron nails have done well. Silicon bronze would have been due for replacement soon, but of course in theory they would have come out, but in practise the heads usually snap off!

I would try a 1/2" drift and a lump hammer. You may get them down a few millimeters without drilling.
Bon Chance!

Englanders decks are teak over ply, screwed down into every deck beam with 14 x 2 1/2 silicon bronze screws, the teak being 1 inch thick, ply 3/4. The decks were laid in 1965, the plugs are now coming out due to wear, I can pull the screws easily, 1000 so far, with a brace and screwdriver bit and they show no signs of degradation, so when is the time to replace silicon bronze screws? I've never seen one in the whole boat which is knackered when I've pulled it.

 

[narcer]

Screwless is best

Englanders decks are teak over ply, screwed down into every deck beam with 14 x 2 1/2 silicon bronze screws, the teak being 1 inch thick, ply 3/4. The decks were laid in 1965, the plugs are now coming out due to wear, I can pull the screws easily, 1000 so far, with a brace and screwdriver bit and they show no signs of degradation, so when is the time to replace silicon bronze screws? I've never seen one in the whole boat which is knackered when I've pulled it.

A quality bronze screw that has already lasted 45 yrs and doesn´t show any particular signs of degredation should be left well alone. I think you´ll spend a fortune in time & money for nothing.

Re teak deck contruction luckily technology has progressed and having done few I would never screw down the plank profiles on any material - only the frames and then "float" the profiles inside the frame with the best quality polymeric available and plenty of weight on top !

 

[Kukri]

Ah, yes. In my case, inch and a quarter teak was secret nailed into oak beams with iron dumps.

Not wanting to replace the deck, I painted it, using Coelan. Of course, I no longer have a "bare teak deck", but I have not had a drip through the decks for 15 years now, so I am happy enough.

 

[Woodlouse]

Englanders decks are teak over ply, screwed down into every deck beam with 14 x 2 1/2 silicon bronze screws, the teak being 1 inch thick, ply 3/4. The decks were laid in 1965, the plugs are now coming out due to wear, I can pull the screws easily, 1000 so far, with a brace and screwdriver bit and they show no signs of degradation, so when is the time to replace silicon bronze screws? I've never seen one in the whole boat which is knackered when I've pulled it.

Take a selection of the screws, clamp them in a vice and then whack em with a hammer. If they bend then the bronze is still sound and you can feel better about using the remainder again. If they snap then you'd seriously want to consider replacing them all.

 

[ccscott49]

Take a selection of the screws, clamp them in a vice and then whack em with a hammer. If they bend then the bronze is still sound and you can feel better about using the remainder again. If they snap then you'd seriously want to consider replacing them all.

Ah! So what you are saying is they must cold work harden, I never knew that, mind you copper does, so does tin and these screws are copper, tin and a smidging of silicon, so you may well be right. I do have a gross of new deck screws, just in case!