Insurance for an electric yacht conversion
- Thread starter big_s
- Start date
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
I was thinking the same thing and going to re-read to check. Pretty certain the important point was that the battery was being used to move something (boat, bike, scooter, etc.).
That means a solar array could charge a 400Ah li-ion domestic battery with nobody aboard but you mustn't leave an electric outboard on charge as well.
fredrussell
Well-Known Member
A very frustrating situation for the OP. An eye opener for me too as when (if) my ancient Yanmar donk dies my plan was to do exactly as OP did (or planned to do).
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
Oops, obviously didn't remember the exact wording correctly. Just checked the renewal more carefully and it does cover domestic batteries as well (see extract from policy below).
Unless I'm missing something:
Any li-ion battery "rated above 100Wh", so that would include domestic batteries.
"If Your boat, Tender, or Electronically driven equipment" also includes domestic batteries
That would mean you couldn't leave domestic batteries to top up on shore power overnight, even when you are aboard. In fact you couldn't leave them on charge after sunset but before going to bed. Charging on solar would be fine at that must be during daylight hours, but only if you are always onboard.
Actually 1.4.11 says "must be charged during daylight hours" and doesn't say "must ONLY be charged during daylight hours". A bit woolly.
Lithium Batteries
Definitions which apply only to special condition 1.4.11 – 1.4.15
Batteries: lithium-ion or lithium iron phosphate battery/batteries rated above 100Wh
Electronically driven equipment: Personal watercraft, jet skis, paddleboards, foils, seabobs, bikes, skateboards, scooters, and any other form of transport containing one or more Batteries or any Batteries used to propel the vessel.
If Your boat, Tender, or Electronically driven equipment is equipped with lithium-ion or lithium iron phosphate batteries, You must comply with the following conditions:
1.4.11 The Batteries must be charged during daylight hours.
1.4.12 Your boat , Tender or Electronically driven equipment must not be left Unattended whilst charging the Batteries.
1.4.13 You must use and store the Batteries in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer.
1.4.14 You must charge the Batteries using the charging equipment supplied or approved by the manufacturer.
1.4.15 There must be an Aqueous Vermiculite Dispersion (AVD) Fire Extinguisher on board Your boat.
Unless I'm missing something:
Any li-ion battery "rated above 100Wh", so that would include domestic batteries.
"If Your boat, Tender, or Electronically driven equipment" also includes domestic batteries
That would mean you couldn't leave domestic batteries to top up on shore power overnight, even when you are aboard. In fact you couldn't leave them on charge after sunset but before going to bed. Charging on solar would be fine at that must be during daylight hours, but only if you are always onboard.
Actually 1.4.11 says "must be charged during daylight hours" and doesn't say "must ONLY be charged during daylight hours". A bit woolly.
Lithium Batteries
Definitions which apply only to special condition 1.4.11 – 1.4.15
Batteries: lithium-ion or lithium iron phosphate battery/batteries rated above 100Wh
Electronically driven equipment: Personal watercraft, jet skis, paddleboards, foils, seabobs, bikes, skateboards, scooters, and any other form of transport containing one or more Batteries or any Batteries used to propel the vessel.
If Your boat, Tender, or Electronically driven equipment is equipped with lithium-ion or lithium iron phosphate batteries, You must comply with the following conditions:
1.4.11 The Batteries must be charged during daylight hours.
1.4.12 Your boat , Tender or Electronically driven equipment must not be left Unattended whilst charging the Batteries.
1.4.13 You must use and store the Batteries in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer.
1.4.14 You must charge the Batteries using the charging equipment supplied or approved by the manufacturer.
1.4.15 There must be an Aqueous Vermiculite Dispersion (AVD) Fire Extinguisher on board Your boat.
Minerva
Well-Known Member
Who is that with?
Just checked and my policy with Pants makes no reference to batteries at all. When I took out the policy they did check that I was a competent person to install the lifepo4 battery system and were satisfied that I am. Nothing in the small print though.
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
It's Crystal Waters policy with Bishop Skinner.
big_s
Active Member
Anyone got a ball park idea how much it would cost to get a professional marine electrician to do an electric motor install? (Rough details of my current system design can be found here).
Thinking it may be an option to rip out my install and get a professional to redo rather than throwing in the towel and going with a diesel engine. I understand this will probably entail a feasibility visit, system design and then finally the installation itself. Travel will also likely be a factor but let's treat that separately for now.
Thinking it may be an option to rip out my install and get a professional to redo rather than throwing in the towel and going with a diesel engine. I understand this will probably entail a feasibility visit, system design and then finally the installation itself. Travel will also likely be a factor but let's treat that separately for now.
seeSimon
Well-Known Member
Aqueous Vermiculite Dispersion (AVD) Fire Extinguisher.
Has anyone found a source of these at sensible prices?
Those I've seen rather smack of "passing bandwagon jumping"
Has anyone found a source of these at sensible prices?
Those I've seen rather smack of "passing bandwagon jumping"
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
A 1 litre AVD extinguisher is only suitable for batteries with capacity up to 60 Wh according to the manufacturer...
Lithium-ion Fire Extinguishers | Fire Protection | Bryland Fire
That's phones, tablets, small tools. Not even all laptops. If you have something like a Torqeedo for your flubber with a 1 kWh battery then you need a 50 l extinguisher. That will cost as much as the Torqeedo. Might not fit in the cockpit locker either.
If the insurance companies insist on this then it will be back to petrol for most people.
Boathook
Well-Known Member
And 2 stroke for me to keep the weight down when fitting to dinghy, etc.
Graham376
Well-Known Member
OTOH, if folks are willing to carry their own battery fire risk, it may be possible to get an endorsement cancelling this section. I suppose much will depend on boat value and how individuals perceive the risk.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Need to be very careful that doesn't also lose third party risk due to fire.
Imagine if your boat went on fire in a marina or boatyard and set fire to neighbouring hoats, perhaps worth several millions.
jakew009
Well-Known Member
How are these insurance companies defining a "professional"?
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
Good question, and the answer may well be meaningless! I was, and still could be, a Senior Member of the IEEE (I let my membership lapse on retirement, but I could renew it very easily). In the USA, that entitles me to Professional Engineer status. Of course, my ability to design and install lithium battery systems is non-existent; my electrical knowledge ran out after doing A-level physics, which means I know the theory but not the practice! My membership of the IEEE stemmed from an entirely different aspect of the IEEE's areas of interest (Geoscience and Remote Sensing). But I could certainly claim to be a professional engineer, and back it up with appropriate certification. In this context, it would be meaningless - I am actually less well qualified to install lithium batteries than several contributors here. But no-one could say I am not a professional!
Graham376
Well-Known Member
Although anyone can call themselves a professional by printing letterheads and cards, my guess would be insurers want someone with proven track record and liability cover so they can recover costs.
[70521]
Well-Known Member
See post #6
That is their problem. They need to work out what they mean by professional in this context after all nobody else knows.
seeSimon
Well-Known Member
"So, you were a boat owner sir...are you still a home owner?...at the moment... "
Yes. Seems to me, all the insurers/victims of your fire may need is someone with assets/Professional indemnity insurance?
I'll have to cross this bridge later, if necessary...no chance of me buying a 25-50ltr "appropriate extinguisher".
Come to it, I couldn't carry one onboard my 26ftr if given it for free!
So, if any lithium batteries were to go on fire on my boat looks like I won't be extinguishing it? I'd always planned to ditch my torqueedo battery overside. As I use it on my tender (and rarely use shore power), it hasn't yet been charged onboard whilst unattended.
Those "appropriate fuses" now look cheaper!
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seeSimon
Well-Known Member
Yet another instance of a "miraculous" new technology outrunning legislators/regulators? ... and perhaps common sense?
In my most recent experience very similar to the creeping introduction of very large "podded propulsors" as Main Engines (sole propulsion) on commercial shipping (including very high risk applications such as clean product tankers and passenger ships) which saw them become the norm, whilst effectively categorised by Flag States and Classification Societies/insurers as "bow thrusters".
Lots of examples...several on the MAIB website!
I recall the introduction of the highly innovative High Speed Ferries (Incat/Hoverspeed GB...1991?) was similarly problematic. Then came Stenas gas turbine propelled HSC HSS ferries in 1996?
Like AntarticPilot at #35 above I'm now retired, but pay subs to institutes to officially retain my "Professional Status" (mechanical, not electrical).
I suspect, that as a some-time "Professional " (and home owner! - see above) any aggrieved party would expect me to work only within the "limits of my competence" or some such weasel words?
Meanwhile, I hope that all the current "youngsters" are doing a better job on the introduction of alternative "green fuels" for combustion engines such as Hydrogen, Ammonia, Methanol...etc etc...as well as the inevitable batteries!
Current UK MCA offerings on lithium batteries (for our sort of small craft, afraid I've lost interest in the big stuff) doesn't inspire my confidence.
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Ian_Edwards
Well-Known Member
I think that there is a significant amount of disinformation around Lithium batteries, and as for as I can see very few people really understand them.
As far as I can see there's no requirement for any formal qualification required for a boat owner to install a new diesel engine in a boat, along with, a say a 100L, diesel or petrol tank, which when full would take contain about 1,000 kWh of energy, and if ignited would be very difficult to put out. And I don't know where I would find a "qualified person" who would be able to design a Lithium ion battery system which is safe. I suspect that there isn't much difference between a well designed lead acid battery system and Lithium system if you used if you used "drop in" LiFEPO4. ie ones with built-in BMS systems.
I'm not sure what the sailing or boating community can do about such a poorly drafted item of guidance. The only existing organisation which might be in a position to challenge it is the RYA, but I don't see them taking on a project like this.
On a personal note, I've now been sailing, a wide variety of boats for over 70 year. The only time I've ever come near to a fire on board was a lead acid battery wired to start the engine. A 12 volt battery fail with an internal short circuit. The battery got very hot and started gassing hydrogen. I only knew because the bilge propane/butane gas alarm went off. This was in a standard, unmodified, commercially installed system, built, well regarded yard.
I have a background as the research and development manager for a large multination Offshore Construction Company, with a multi million dollar research R&D budget. A job I did for 13 years. I've been associated with many Lithium battery projects, in both universities and commercial companies, developing anode, cathode, electrolytes and separators. I've also worked with projects to develop semiconductors and associated circuit design for battery management system. One of the safety test we used on new prototype systems, was to fire a steel crossbow bolts through fully charged batteries. In every test I witnessed the steel bolt did not cause a fire.
- There is no Metallic Lithium in either a standard Lithium car battery or a LiFePO4, there are Lithium ions. The Lithium is there as a constituent in a compound with other elements.
- Lithium metal, the lightest metal, is highly reactive with air and water. Are people getting confused, and not recognising the difference between the pure metal and compounds containing Lithium?
- The electrolyte in many "lithium" is a Lithium salt dissolved in an organic solvent. The organic solvent is flammable, but to catch fire it need an ignition source in exactly the same way as Petrol or Diesel or Propane or Butane.
- Most of the world population are quite happy to move around the world in close proximity to large quantiles a of highly inflammable hydrocarbons.
- The fire brigades have over 100 years of experience of dealing with hydrocarbon base fires, and are well trained and equipped to respond. They have very little experience, equipment or training on how to respond to a lithium battery fire. The same would be true of a hydrogen fire ( you can't see a pure hydrogen flame!).
- Studies have shown that the chance of an EV catching fire is 25 in 10,000, compared to 1,500 in 10,000 for an ICE.
- Is this the same as the law which demanded that a man, carrying a red flag around in front of a car, to warn people and prevent horses being frightened?
As far as I can see there's no requirement for any formal qualification required for a boat owner to install a new diesel engine in a boat, along with, a say a 100L, diesel or petrol tank, which when full would take contain about 1,000 kWh of energy, and if ignited would be very difficult to put out. And I don't know where I would find a "qualified person" who would be able to design a Lithium ion battery system which is safe. I suspect that there isn't much difference between a well designed lead acid battery system and Lithium system if you used if you used "drop in" LiFEPO4. ie ones with built-in BMS systems.
I'm not sure what the sailing or boating community can do about such a poorly drafted item of guidance. The only existing organisation which might be in a position to challenge it is the RYA, but I don't see them taking on a project like this.
On a personal note, I've now been sailing, a wide variety of boats for over 70 year. The only time I've ever come near to a fire on board was a lead acid battery wired to start the engine. A 12 volt battery fail with an internal short circuit. The battery got very hot and started gassing hydrogen. I only knew because the bilge propane/butane gas alarm went off. This was in a standard, unmodified, commercially installed system, built, well regarded yard.
I have a background as the research and development manager for a large multination Offshore Construction Company, with a multi million dollar research R&D budget. A job I did for 13 years. I've been associated with many Lithium battery projects, in both universities and commercial companies, developing anode, cathode, electrolytes and separators. I've also worked with projects to develop semiconductors and associated circuit design for battery management system. One of the safety test we used on new prototype systems, was to fire a steel crossbow bolts through fully charged batteries. In every test I witnessed the steel bolt did not cause a fire.