Insurance and gas installations

[gasdave]

To comply with my insurance I have been asked to ensure some recommendations from a 2007 survey are carried out (I "inherited" the boat with this survey and the work not having been completed).
One is the fitting of an LPG gas detector and a CO detector and a test cock - a type A1 recommendation, ie. "IMMEDIATE" and "MUST HAVE".
The gas system should be checked by someone registered with "whatever the new CORGI is" who has boat experience and made to comply with the BSS (even though this boat wasn't, and will never be, near an inland waterway). I also must fit a galvanic isolator and earth trip to the 240V supply (currently a simplenon-fixed cable extension supplying 2 sockets - admittedly not the safest arrangement!). Finally, I need a tap at the bottom of my fuel tank sight glass. So .......

1. can anyone recommend a suitable reasonably priced gas detector/alarm system? I've been looking at the Pilot ones. Boat is a Sadler 26.

2. same question about a galvanic isolator/earth trip

3. the boat has existed unmodified like this for the last 2 years. Apart from the obvious safety issue, is it normal for insurance companies to insist on these changes?

Thanks again

 

[Sandyman]

Insurance underwriters are just monkeys with no understanding of the marine environment, what is safe & what is not. They go on what they consider to be professional advise and insist on such things as you mention.
As long as your Gas locker, assuming you have one, has a vent to the upper deck below the level of the bottle (s) I can see no need for a detector/alarm.

Most of this rubbish is all part of rip-off the rich Yattie.com

Find another insurer.

 

[Malcb]

Find another insurer.

Or find another Surveyor as well

 

[mitiempo]

Or develop a small leak in the line or where it attaches to the cooker and slowly fill the boat up with gas without you knowing. Then make some tea.

 

[Neil_Y]

Shop around for a different insurer and surveyor.

Options with some insurers are to have cover for everything except gas related or fire claims.

Never heard of an insurance (or a surveyor) insisting on a galvanic isolator, this is only needed if you connect systems on the boat which have a common ground connected to underwater bits of metal.

I've fitted gas systems to coded standard for use with paying passengers and only needed a quick pressure test and visual inspection of flexible hoses.

One gas detector and no CO detector.

 

[Spyro]

Remove the gas, fit an origo get a new survey.
If you fit gas later do you need to tell your insurance comp?
Disconnect mains, if it's not there he can't survey it.

 

[PeterGibbs]

1. can anyone recommend a suitable reasonably priced gas detector/alarm system? I've been looking at the Pilot ones. Boat is a Sadler 26.

2. same question about a galvanic isolator/earth trip

3. the boat has existed unmodified like this for the last 2 years. Apart from the obvious safety issue, is it normal for insurance companies to insist on these changes?

Thanks again[/QUOTE]

Bear up! I endorse the dismissive tones of my fellow posters to your note. Surveyors like to pad their reports and it seems you are the victim of this practice. Unless your boat is to be used commercially, normal safeguards will suffice. If you get into a long correspondence with your insurer, you know this will weigh against you in the event of a claim - find another insurer, one of the more experienced type!

BUT:
Gas that might escape from the tank has to be ducted overboard - this is common to all boats. I also have a carbon monoxide detector in play (from B & Q) as a backup. It pays to check the gas line yourself each season to guard against chafe or corrosion. Flexible connections should be replaced according to the dates on the exisiting tubing. You do not need a Corgi monkey for this.

Mains power coming aboard requires earthing of course, and a RCD in the circuit is a good added protection (easy to install) although most marinas now use these in their distribution boxes, so it's already in play.

Tap at the bottom of a sight glass is boiler plate stuff. If you have an inline filter, as I'm sure you will, with a bowl in the base, this will void all but a major water incursion. You are well enough protected in this department.

Sail on my friend, with a clear conscience!

PWG

 

[doug748]

As others have said, I would:
Take out the bodged up mains supply and equip yourself with a mains lead, RCD trip and round, three pin type marina plug. Your supply is now portable, safe and nowt to do with the boat or it's survey.
You can buy a CO2 detector for about ten quid in your larger cheap stores or caravan shop. The gas alarm is not a bad idea either and fairly cheap, tho you will have to use a marine source. By test cock I guess they mean a facility for an engineer to pressure test the system for leaks; instead I would fit an Alde gas leak detector:
http://www.alde.co.uk/itemdetails.php?itemId=53
These are good and useful things and it means you can teat your system yourself before each use if you wish.
This is not the end of your worries. If you get in the Corgi (whatever) bloke he may come in with all sorts of ideas, some of which might be impossible, without butchery, on your Sadler. This is certainly the case on the 25, your 26 might be better.
As this point you may wish to lose your survey and insurance company. Make sure any new surveyor is well briefed before you employ him.
The best non gas cooking system I had, worked with meths under pressure, of American design. It was fairly expensive to run and not particularly convienient. I would not myself go for the Origo or parafin type.

 

[lw395]

As others have said, I would:

You can buy a CO2 detector for about ten quid in your larger cheap stores or caravan shop. .

It's CO not CO2 (?), but the rest of it seems sound.
imho, it's important to keep an eye on the gas system regularly, several times a year in case of damage or wear on flexi's, pipe that run through lockers etc.
An official test once a year might look good on paper, but stuff can corrode or get damaged in a few weeks sailing.
also think about how quickly your gas runs out...
Have you used that much or do you have a small leak?

One feature I would not be without is a gas shut off near the cooker that is visible and obvious whether it's on or off. People always forget the ones in lockers when they are involved with serving up a meal etc.

Wouldn't it make sense if sailing clubs arranged for loads of boats to be tested at once, a specialist ought to be able to do 10 in a morning if they're all rafted up together....?

 

[gasdave]

Thankyou so far guys.

As I said I "inherited" rather than chose this surveyor - the rest of the 07 survey was good so I elected to forego repeating it when I purchased her. Good point about "priming" the next surveyor!

I will fit a galvanic isolator and RCD as she will now be kept in a marina (previously on a swinging mooring with no stray currents) and properly install a shorepower hook-up.

The gas is carried in a properly vented locker. However the Alde leak detector seems like a sensible idea as does a simple alarm - although exactly where to put the sensor might cause some debate. The lowest part of the bilge in this Sadler is in front of the engine and this "sump" is not in direct communication with any of the cabin bilges. The pipe is run through the starboard cockpit locker to the galley. Perhaps a protected position at the bottom of this locker would be best, assuming only one sensor is deemed necessary for a boat of this size?

The boat is adequately vented and has no CO producing heating systems so I don't see the need for this.

 

[rob2]

A gas alarm and CO alarm are sensible items to have and are covered above in earlier replies.
Gas fittings also as above, although fitting the Alde isn't cheap for what it is and if you have the gas detector is somewhat belt and braces. Good management - turning the gas bottle off - is best!
The galvanic isolator is an interesting item in so far as they tend to cost a lot, but there was an article in the last few months in PBO to make your own for around a tenner. Combined with a RCD caravan lead, that would cover everything.

Nanny state is more a state of mind!

Rob.

 

[Pye_End]

Rather annoying.

My insurance co tried to stay at arms length when it came to the detail of the report.

When I queried whether certain items should form part of the insurance requirement, all I get was 'the yacht may not be insured if there was an accident to do with the item on the report'. Not wont, or will but maybe!

For example - the rig. I spoke to the insurance company prior to the report as the rig was 10 years ish, and I wanted from them 1/their specific requirement and 2/any useful information/numbers to help me in my decision to renew. Their response was that as long as it was kept in good order that is all they required. When it came to survey, the report said that rigs of 10 or may must be replaced, and so the initial poisition from the insurance company was 'sort out all items on the report'. When I questioned this item they said that it was not their policy therefore not required. Now if this is the case for this item, what about the rest of the report? They were unwilling to talk about the items that came up, and when I wanted clarification from the surveyor as to which items should be insurance issues I got no answer.

My report did not mention either a CO detector or a gas detector, and he would not have seen any indication of these on the boat at the time. So why should a different surveyor have a different attitude?

Insurance companies / surveyors - if you are reading - you need to sort this out. More and more boats are required to be surveyed, but the items turning up on them do not seem to correspond to specific standards, and nobody is giving any answers.

 

[Pye_End]

The boat is adequately vented and has no CO producing heating systems so I don't see the need for this.

Cookers can produce CO if oxygen is running a low. I am guessing that cookers tend not to be a big problem as they don't tend to run for hours and hours, and when they are all the steam needs to go somewhere so ventilation tends to be required just for this.

However if you used a cooker as a heater for example (and this is not recommended) then the risks go up.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Thankyou so far guys.

As I said I "inherited" rather than chose this surveyor - the rest of the 07 survey was good so I elected to forego repeating it when I purchased her. Good point about "priming" the next surveyor!

I will fit a galvanic isolator and RCD as she will now be kept in a marina (previously on a swinging mooring with no stray currents) and properly install a shorepower hook-up.

The gas is carried in a properly vented locker. However the Alde leak detector seems like a sensible idea as does a simple alarm - although exactly where to put the sensor might cause some debate. The lowest part of the bilge in this Sadler is in front of the engine and this "sump" is not in direct communication with any of the cabin bilges. The pipe is run through the starboard cockpit locker to the galley. Perhaps a protected position at the bottom of this locker would be best, assuming only one sensor is deemed necessary for a boat of this size?

The boat is adequately vented and has no CO producing heating systems so I don't see the need for this.

I have always found that insurers listen to reason.

Explain what you are going to do (not proposing to do) and ask them to confirm that they are happy in writing.

CO detector not necessary in my view, Gas detector? provided you check the Alde leak tester regularly, and have flame out devices on the cooker, then I would be happy with that.

 

[voicilesrosbifs]

Marine Gassers

If you get in the Corgi (whatever) bloke he may come in with all sorts of ideas, some of which might be impossible, without butchery, on your Sadler. This is certainly the case on the 25, your 26 might be better.

Too true! Replacing cooker on our 29, I thought to do it 'properly' with a marine gas 'full fitter' (there's a rhyme there, folks) who presumably had all the qualifications and a quaint sense of humour. His requirements included a cooker lid so large it would have required a slice out of the saloon roof. Eejit! The yard couldn't touch it, not being 'proper' gas fitters, so I ended up doing it myself which is a)quite legal for a private boat and b)safe enough, especially since I'm fitting a bubble leak detector and already have a gas alarm in the shallow bilge. The fitter was going to charge a couple of hundred quid just to inspect it. Bah!

 

[mitiempo]

gasdave
Your sensor should be installed low under or very close to the cooker but not in the bilge. The sensor will be useless it it gets wet. Best place is just above the cabin sole in way of the stove and protected from feet.

 

[NormanS]

Sight glass

To comply with my insurance I have been asked to ensure some recommendations from a 2007 survey are carried out (I "inherited" the boat with this survey and the work not having been completed)......................
..........Finally, I need a tap at the bottom of my fuel tank sight glass. So .......

Thanks again

Hi, Gasdave,

Lots have responded re the gas requirements.

I am interested in what was said about the "tap at the bottom of fuel sight glass". Is this a drain for the sight glass? Or is it to isolate the sight glass?

It should certainly be possible to isolate a sight glass, otherwise a leak would land all the fuel into the bilge, but I wouldn't have thought that a drain was really necessary.

When I had a boat which wintered in a BW canal, and therefore had to comply with the BSS, I wasn't allowed fuel sight glasses. I used to remove the sight glasses for the inspection, but they were fitted with isolation valves. It may be that the BSS now allows sight glasses, which are by far the best way of seeing how much fuel is in a tank.

 

[gasdave]

I am interested in what was said about the "tap at the bottom of fuel sight glass". Is this a drain for the sight glass? Or is it to isolate the sight glass?

Very good question and I suspect if I were to contact the surveyor now he probably wouldn't remember the boat. His report gives no reason!

I'm not sure what you mean by isolating the sight glass, other than perhaps being able to remove it for BW use (I wasn't aware of that regulation) so maybe this was the reasoning behind his recommendation. Rather confused thinking if so!

I can think of no particularly useful reason to have a drain at the bottom of a sight glass. There is already a tap on the fuel outlet at the base of the tank to cut off the supply. This should serve to drain the tank if necessary. An extra tap would only contribute something else to leak and therefore surely become a hazard.

 

[mitiempo]

gasdave
I tyhink what the surveyor wants is a valve that would disconnect the sight glass totally from the tank so that if the sightglass were to be broken the tank wouldn't drain.

 

[gasdave]

Ahhh! You could be right, mitiempo!

It currently has a clear perspex shield positioned around it which gives good protection but your suggestion is good. I think I might leave it as is for now because of that.